In a message dated 10/10/99 8:06:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
cbaker@... writes:
<< If there is indeed enough nuclear bombs used to destroy every single person
who is capable of producing a viable firearm in the whole world, than there
would be no life left on earth. Earth is a very very big place, I'm sure if
even one local gunsmith, (and they exist, trust me, I know a few hobbyists
who make their own barrels.) survived, he or she (yes she) would be making a
killing in the post apocalyptic world, with his or her skills. (of course,
it is foolish to believe that only ONE would survive)>>
Well, true, I will grant you a few hobbyist make there own barrels. I doubt,
however, they smelt their own metal to make them. And they don't make the
whole gun. Or grind up charcoal and salt peter to make their own gunpowder.
My point is that mass gun production requires a industry to produce them.
Even the Old West had factorys to produce parts for the weapons back in the
civilized East. And assuming even a relatively light nuclear strike
(compared to the 99.5 percent casualties mentioned earlier), that production
capability would be wiped out. I know of no nonindustrialized country that
produces large qualities of guns (am I wrong here?)
<< I really don't think it is probable in any way to nuke our society back to
the technology of the Native Americans. Because in order to have a viable
society, you must have quite a few survivors. Survivors who know things, who
have skills, who pass those skills and knowledge's on, those who have access
to more equipment and resources than anyone really needs anymore.>>
I don't know, maybe. But lets see, I know computers pretty good, whoops, no
more power, computer knowledge out the window. Ok then, I know a good bit
about woodworking, that should come in handy, until the tools rust out and I
am trying to carve with flint, unfortunately, flint knapping skills are a
rare commodity. Well, we can probably pour some new tools out at the local
steel foundry, whoops, that has no power. Ok lets run over to the power
plant and see if we can get that working. Yep, we get it working but soon
the fuel runs out. Hmmm... How does one get to Iran to pick up some some
crude oil?
Everything in a advanced civilization depends on a complex web of trade in
information and commoditys. Even a slight disruption can cause major ripple
effects, look at the concern over Y2K. A large nuclear strike would have
much more devastating effect. What happens when there is a whole bunch of
people that don't have enough to eat? OK, you know how to make a gun barrel,
meanwhile Joe Bob over there doesn't know a damn thing about how to go about
making a gun barrel, but he owns a whole slew of guns and your looking mighty
tasty. Gun barrel making is not all that useful in itself. Now that guy who
makes his own gun powder is over on the other side of town, but
unfortunately, his block is in a war with your block over the last of the
burritos at the local 7-11. The other guy who knows about it lives a hundred
miles away, but you can't get there because the roads are all blocked, the
car has a flat and there are no more tires and what little fuel there is is
being used in the great 7-11 war.
< And as for the guns breaking down, what the hell happened to Human
Ingenuity. If human beings didn't fix or innovate anything, if they couldn't
think about problems and solve them, they'd all be monkeys or something they
sure as to hell wouldn't be human.>
Oh, I have no doubt that people will come up with very clever ways to get
that broken gun working again. But that can't last forever. Entropy wins
out eventually no matter what.
<Remember, if you will, that the very long
time it took to produce firearms in real life you describe, was starting
from absolute dick. I'm sure technology related to firearms would be on
track much much faster than you expect.>
Well, my point is that knowledge is not enough. You need the capablity. Say
you are an absolute expert on how to make a gun. You know every formula to
make gun powder, you know how make a barrel and the triggering mechanism,
everything there is to know, you got in spades. Now lets drop you in, say, 1
AD Jerusalem. What are you going to do? The metal needed to make the gun is
way out of anybodys ability, for there is no steel. OK, lets say you just
happen to have a PhD in metallurgy or just happened to be transported with a
whole ton of quality steel. Hmmm... Do you know how to build a foundry? Do
you know how to build the tools to work the metal? Do you know how to build
the tools to build the tools to work the metal? The guys that do are mighty
far away and you have no way to reach them.
< And From what I can tell, your statement describes less efficient firearms,
not a lack of them.>
Well, even saying that is true, remember the Musketeers had muskets but still
had to be really handy with a sword. Depending how less efficient they are,
they would have less of an effect on combat on a whole. The very earliest
cannon were used mostly just to scare horses.
<Unless stopped completely, humanity rolls onward.>
Agreed, but that doesn't mean they don't slide back sometimes. Look at the
Depression and that was only an economic disaster.
< And again, I never said that it couldn't be done in entertainment, like a
role-playing game.>
True enough, this thread is kind of getting off topic. And I'm not saying
that things _couldn't_ go like you say, just that the original idea of guns
being gone in the wake of a nuclear exchange is not completely invalid.
And I won't even get into the idea of a mass population inforcing a no gun
ban on the few guns that still exist or can be produced. Remember the
Luddites.
OK, I'll get off the soapbox. . :)
Oh, and thanks, I haven't had this much intelligent debate for years.