--- necro6hit <ringthief@...> wrote:

> ok, now that this has gone religious

Once you start talking about absolute morality, it's inevitable. An absolute
morality can only come from two sources.

1) The universe itself (hmmm, morality as physical law. I like it).
2) The guy/groups that made the universe (God, the goddess, Odin, Chronos,
Coyote, Raven, etc.)

i have a few things to say.

> specificly since it was brought up how certain ppl might classify a
> pagan to be "evil".

Don't worry. It doesn't matter what your are or what group you're a part of,
someone out there will hate you for it. Most likely several someones.

=====
staredown@... http://staredown.8m.net

"We don't expect kittens to fight wildcats and win
--we merely expect them to try."
-- Robert Heinlein

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

--- In streetfighter@y..., Chris Hoffmann <staredown@r...> wrote:

> Don't worry. It doesn't matter what your are or what group you're

a part of,

> someone out there will hate you for it. Most likely several

someones.

>

my, aren't we the optimist!
:)

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:

> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > How about killing an important enemy in single hand combat
> > in a war?
>
> alright, the object here is to see if you can be evil and
> honorable.
> therefore you need a clear cut example of evil to begin with
> before you can decide if it is also honorable.
> you are choosing an example that is in a gray area to begin
> with between good and evil which opens up an entirely new
> debate.
> give a clear cut example to begin with of something TOTALLY
> and BLATANTLY evil and show me how it is honorable.
> if you use an example like that it just starts a sub thread and
> the conversation turns from defining honor to defining evil.

How can I give you an example of evil without a definition of evil?
And I'm afraid there is no such thing as an universal moral, but
only what people believe to be moral.

> > Everyone in your home sure would view you as a hero and
> > since didn't shoot him without warning, you acted honorably.
> > But since killing per sé is morally wrong in your country, you
> > did something bad at the same time.
>
> see above, in this highly specific example, killing might not be
> considered morally wrong.

Yes - "CONSIDERED". That's the point exactly!
Is killing right or wrong? The 10 commandments say it's wrong,
but there is also that "eye for an eye"...

< snip >

> all these responses of yours alerts me to the fact that not only
> do we disagree on definition, we disagree on WHAT
> DETERMINES DEFINITION.
>
> I think there is a universal truth of what is honorable and
> dishonorable.
>
> you seem to think that it all depends entirely on the perceptions
> of ppl around.

Everybody judges by his own measures even if those measures
are most often given to him by the society he lives in.

> untill we agree on what determines a definition we can never
> agree on a definition.
>
> But I will again pose the Nazi analogy.
>
> By YOUR idea that honor is totally subjective according to
> individual perceptions instead of a universal truth, you are
> basically saying that Everything the nazi's did was
> "HONORABLE" because their peers perceived it to be.

No, I would never say that. Not "everything" they did would be
perceived as honorable, but more things than we would see as
honorable.

> Do you:
> A.) think the genocide, torture/death experiments, murder of the
> nazi's is an HONORABLE act?

No, never!

> or
> B.) admit that's a gaping hole in your theory?

It's no hole, since not I would perceive them as honorable but
their peers might do. And more likely nobody would see such
things as honorable (besides some phychos perhaps).

>
> Matt
>
> p.s. again this is all my oppinion on the broad concept of
> honor.
> the game mechanic "Honor" clearly states that unlike Glory, it
> exists entirely seperate from an audiences perception.
> do you argue that as a game mechanic also?

I already agreed with you in that point in an earlier post!
(Re: Honor)

> or only "real-life" honor?

The "real-life" of other people ;-)

And I will repeat an answer from another earlier post:

"Aberrant Evil"
This is a person who is driven to attain his goals through force,
power, and intimidation. Yet the aberrant person stands apart
from the norm, with his own, personal code of ethics (although
twisted ethics by the standards of good). He expects loyality from
his minions, punishing disloyality and treachery with a swift,
merciful death. An aberrant person will always keep his word of
honor and uphold any bargains. He will define his terms and live
by them, whether anyone else likes it or not.
Aberrant characters will ...
1. Always keep his word of honor (he is honorable).
2. Lie to and cheat those not worthy of his respect.
3. May or may not kill an unarmed foe.
4. Not kill (may harm, kidnap) an innocent, particularly a child.
5. Never kills for pleasure.
6. Not resort to inhumane treatment of prisoners, but torture,
although distasteful, is a neccessary means of extracting
information.
7. Never torture for pleasure.
8. May or may not help someone in need.
9. Work with others to maintain his goals.
10. Respects honor and self-discipline.
11. Never betray a friend.

I think that sums it up pretty good.

In your point of view, such a guy would only be evil, not
honorable.
I'm saying honor depends on the point of view as does good and
evil (even if there are some evils most or even all people would
see as such).

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "thy_sorrow" <shallow_one@h...> wrote:

> On a side note... I HATE amazon... ok maybe not, but I was unlucky
> enough to miss a players handbook, a secrets of shadowloo and a
> perfect warrior, by a day... *bangs her head against a wall*

yeah i know how you feel, I forgot to check an auction on ebay and
got out-bid on a whole set of books.

> :oÞ
> Is there a way other then here we could talk some time?

you have icq?
e mail me your icq number.
unless of coarse you like long distance charges.

Matt

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the streetfighter
group.

File : /Matt's/character generator/chargen.zip
Uploaded by : necro6hit <ringthief@...>
Description : Unzip and click "index". sample of FULL character generator im workin on

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/streetfighter/files/Matt%27s/character%20generator/chargen.zip

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

necro6hit <ringthief@...>

looks like we should just agree to disagree i guess.
like i said. theres no way we can agree on a definition if we cant
even agree on how you GET a definition.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > p.s. again this is all my oppinion on the broad concept of
> > honor.
> > the game mechanic "Honor" clearly states that unlike Glory, it
> > exists entirely seperate from an audiences perception.
> > do you argue that as a game mechanic also?
>
> I already agreed with you in that point in an earlier post!
> (Re: Honor)


i thought that earlier post was on honors definition in-game.
isn't this the first time i pointed out that the book also indicates
that an audience or point of view is not needed?

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:

> 1) It depends on the game.
> In L5R for example (snipped)
>Same would happen in AD&D: Oriental Adventures. (snipped)

whenever I say "In-Game" or some such I mean in Streetfighter: The
Storytelling Game...

whenever I don't, I'm usually talking about real life, non game,
honor.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:

> looks like we should just agree to disagree i guess.
> like i said. theres no way we can agree on a definition if we
> cant even agree on how you GET a definition.

Yes, I'm afraid that's the main problem here ;-)

> > > the game mechanic "Honor" clearly states that unlike Glory,
> > > it exists entirely seperate from an audiences perception.
> > > do you argue that as a game mechanic also?
> >
> > I already agreed with you in that point in an earlier post!
> > (Re: Honor)
>
>
> i thought that earlier post was on honors definition in-game.
> isn't this the first time i pointed out that the book also indicates
> that an audience or point of view is not needed?
>
> Matt

As far as the game is concerned your absolutly right :-)

Roland

Looks like I play too much ;-)

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > 1) It depends on the game.
> > In L5R for example (snipped)
> >Same would happen in AD&D: Oriental Adventures. (snipped)
>
>
> whenever I say "In-Game" or some such I mean in
Streetfighter: The
> Storytelling Game...
>
> whenever I don't, I'm usually talking about real life, non game,
> honor.

Bah no problems with anyone till they tell someone how
to live their life and then ignore em. Many people
many ways. I do hold to my earlier star wars example
though. Basicly without someone telling you good and
evil you have nothing to decide with. Were the nazi's
evil? To us certainly (and I hesitate to use such a
volatile example) To them? Well I hardly think so
many would have gone along with the final solution had
they decided it was evil. Good and Evil right and
wrong are decided by those in power. At least for the
majority. Should germany had conquered and their
ideals overidden the world then what they had done
would be assuredly be seen as good, just not to the
rebels. People say they walk their own way and make
their own decisions as to right and wrong and this is
true to some extent but to a large part good and evil
is very much defined by culture/religion/groupthink.
At least the beginnings.



--- necro6hit <ringthief@...> wrote:

> please dont bring bigotry into this, that doesnt
> define good or evil
> because some close minded asshole cant see past your
> religion.
>
> your defined by your actions, and anyone who
> practices a variant of
> the golden rule sounds pretty good to me.
>
> if some schmuck says your evil it has nothing to do
> with what is
> actually evil. all that means is thats what some
> stupid schmuck
> thinks.
>
> I only have a very deep understanding of the
> christian religion, but
> unlike most christians, I realize I would be a
> hypocrite to think
> your evil. who am i to judge.
>
> close minded, holier than thou ppl do not define
> good and evil, they
> only claim to.
>
> blessed be,
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston
> <callanme@y...> wrote:
> > *Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me
> outright
> > evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms
> none
> > do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
> > rule every religion has. Evil can many times just
> be
> > a matter of perspective. Um to take an example
> from
> > star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
> > destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions
> to
> > billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the
> families
> > of those people what he did was an evil act.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- necro6hit <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > i think thats wrong.
> > > honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior.
> (or
> > > anyone, who does
> > > anything, COULD be honorable)
> > > it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of
> > > behavior.
> > >
> > > morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to
> good/evil.
> > >
> > > and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
> > > I dont believe that either.
> > > someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their
> > > honor, or they can
> > > demand others honor them by force, but that
> doesnt
> > > mean it is an
> > > honorable act because someone misguidedly does
> it in
> > > the name of
> > > honor.
> > >
> > > I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone
> can
> > > live a life of
> > > EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think
> an
> > > explanation exists
> > > for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im
> > > wrong.
> > >
> > > keep in mind honor is not manners, its not
> demanding
> > > other ppl honor
> > > you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or
> > > lawfull, and its not
> > > only if you fight fair or not, and its
> definately
> > > not whatever
> > > anyone person wants it to be at any given
> > > time(ruling out things
> > > being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS
> > > code). having some
> > > code of conduct in general doesnt make you
> > > honorable.
> > >
> > > I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer
> that
> > > might change my
> > > mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be
> evil
> > > and honorable..
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao"
> > > <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > > > And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing
> to
> > > do with good
> > > > or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of
> > > behavior.
> > > > One CAN be evil and honorable at the same
> time!
> > > > That is, because evil has a point of view.
> Evil
> > > can be neccessary
> > > > or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One
> can
> > > be true to one's
> > > > code of conduct and still be viewed as acting
> > > morally wrong.
> > > > Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/

I was implying that you have 3 and a part sets.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away at my own
> loss.
>
> this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone bitched
> and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away original,
> and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.
>
> because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight of not
> having the books despite my having them.
>
> what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this my thanks?
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a part
> sets..
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of the
> > > woodwork.
> > >
> > > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when you
> have
> > > all the books...
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the books,
> but
> > > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can all
> > > share? :P
> > > >
> > > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other
> people
> > > suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not likeit's a
> > > collector's item or anything.......
> > > >
> > > > WarlockFM.

no, you were SAYING i had 3 and a part sets.
Im not sure WHAT you were implying.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> I was implying that you have 3 and a part sets.
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away at my
own
> > loss.
> >
> > this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone
bitched
> > and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away
original,
> > and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.
> >
> > because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight of
not
> > having the books despite my having them.
> >
> > what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this my
thanks?
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a
part
> > sets..
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of
the
> > > > woodwork.
> > > >
> > > > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when
you
> > have
> > > > all the books...
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the
books,
> > but
> > > > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > > > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can
all
> > > > share? :P
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other
> > people
> > > > suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not
likeit's a
> > > > collector's item or anything.......
> > > > >
> > > > > WarlockFM.

I believe that some things are just good, and some are just bad (or
honorable/dishonorable).

even if the entire world is against you you can still be right.

i dont think majority rules.

if everyone thinks something is good, but they are all wrong,
everyone is bad, it's a corrupt world (they just don't realize it).

but on the other hand, its hard to say WHAT it would be like if the
whole world was a certain way because as the Sons of Ether say: "the
cat is both alive and dead"

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> Bah no problems with anyone till they tell someone how
> to live their life and then ignore em. Many people
> many ways. I do hold to my earlier star wars example
> though. Basicly without someone telling you good and
> evil you have nothing to decide with. Were the nazi's
> evil? To us certainly (and I hesitate to use such a
> volatile example) To them? Well I hardly think so
> many would have gone along with the final solution had
> they decided it was evil. Good and Evil right and
> wrong are decided by those in power. At least for the
> majority. Should germany had conquered and their
> ideals overidden the world then what they had done
> would be assuredly be seen as good, just not to the
> rebels. People say they walk their own way and make
> their own decisions as to right and wrong and this is
> true to some extent but to a large part good and evil
> is very much defined by culture/religion/groupthink.
> At least the beginnings.
>
>
>
> --- necro6hit <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > please dont bring bigotry into this, that doesnt
> > define good or evil
> > because some close minded asshole cant see past your
> > religion.
> >
> > your defined by your actions, and anyone who
> > practices a variant of
> > the golden rule sounds pretty good to me.
> >
> > if some schmuck says your evil it has nothing to do
> > with what is
> > actually evil. all that means is thats what some
> > stupid schmuck
> > thinks.
> >
> > I only have a very deep understanding of the
> > christian religion, but
> > unlike most christians, I realize I would be a
> > hypocrite to think
> > your evil. who am i to judge.
> >
> > close minded, holier than thou ppl do not define
> > good and evil, they
> > only claim to.
> >
> > blessed be,
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston
> > <callanme@y...> wrote:
> > > *Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me
> > outright
> > > evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms
> > none
> > > do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
> > > rule every religion has. Evil can many times just
> > be
> > > a matter of perspective. Um to take an example
> > from
> > > star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
> > > destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions
> > to
> > > billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the
> > families
> > > of those people what he did was an evil act.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- necro6hit <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > i think thats wrong.
> > > > honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior.
> > (or
> > > > anyone, who does
> > > > anything, COULD be honorable)
> > > > it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of
> > > > behavior.
> > > >
> > > > morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to
> > good/evil.
> > > >
> > > > and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
> > > > I dont believe that either.
> > > > someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their
> > > > honor, or they can
> > > > demand others honor them by force, but that
> > doesnt
> > > > mean it is an
> > > > honorable act because someone misguidedly does
> > it in
> > > > the name of
> > > > honor.
> > > >
> > > > I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone
> > can
> > > > live a life of
> > > > EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think
> > an
> > > > explanation exists
> > > > for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im
> > > > wrong.
> > > >
> > > > keep in mind honor is not manners, its not
> > demanding
> > > > other ppl honor
> > > > you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or
> > > > lawfull, and its not
> > > > only if you fight fair or not, and its
> > definately
> > > > not whatever
> > > > anyone person wants it to be at any given
> > > > time(ruling out things
> > > > being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS
> > > > code). having some
> > > > code of conduct in general doesnt make you
> > > > honorable.
> > > >
> > > > I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer
> > that
> > > > might change my
> > > > mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be
> > evil
> > > > and honorable..
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao"
> > > > <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > > > > And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing
> > to
> > > > do with good
> > > > > or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of
> > > > behavior.
> > > > > One CAN be evil and honorable at the same
> > time!
> > > > > That is, because evil has a point of view.
> > Evil
> > > > can be neccessary
> > > > > or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One
> > can
> > > > be true to one's
> > > > > code of conduct and still be viewed as acting
> > > > morally wrong.
> > > > > Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> > > http://taxes.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
> http://games.yahoo.com/

I agree, thats why in the few games I've played or DMed, we usualy
leave honor to the player. If he believes he diserves it, he gives
himself one. It's not how people see him, but how he feels. Up to now
we've never seen abuse, quite the contrary. No giving him/herself
points because he/she saw it as a normal action to her character
therefor not worth the addition. By letting the person decide, it
ellimintes most of the problem. Only once in my recall, have I
refused a player a point he was going to put himself, and it was
really a question of my view over his on the subject.

By the way, I love Mage... best concept I've ever seen. Too bad I
don't know anyone who likes the game as I do.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> I believe that some things are just good, and some are just bad (or
> honorable/dishonorable).
>
> even if the entire world is against you you can still be right.
>
> i dont think majority rules.
>
> if everyone thinks something is good, but they are all wrong,
> everyone is bad, it's a corrupt world (they just don't realize it).
>
> but on the other hand, its hard to say WHAT it would be like if the
> whole world was a certain way because as the Sons of Ether
say: "the
> cat is both alive and dead"
>
> Matt

Oh and by the way, I sent you my icq number :o)

--- In streetfighter@y..., "thy_sorrow" <shallow_one@h...> wrote:

> I agree, thats why in the few games I've played or DMed, we usualy
> leave honor to the player. If he believes he diserves it, he gives
> himself one. It's not how people see him, but how he feels. Up to

now

Not a bad idea....

> By the way, I love Mage... best concept I've ever seen. Too bad I
> don't know anyone who likes the game as I do.
>

mage was the first white wolf game i played.
it mostly stayed in my friends trunk cuz no one ever took the time to
figure out the dot system, but i took the time to read about it one
day and found it actually quite simple.

we been hooked on white wolf ever since (still play DnD though too)

Matt

Well, until a few weeks ago I was a full time d&d player... but I'm
sick of the dm's Ihave, so I left all the games... pretty lonely
too... but I figure I'll find some other ones...

As for white wolf, it's my game. I love it. But I'm like the only
Storteller in my area, and most of the people here are into D&D or
Warhammer... so no players... really sucks..only managed to find
Street Fighter players...and thier giving me a hard time...

anyways, time will help me ...I hope :OÞ

Actually I was.. ^_^

I just didn't remember it this time O_o

Last time, you got like half the list on the hook. that was hilarious
indeed ¤_¤


-----ROnin------

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> heh, were you around last time i did that?
> it was hilarious:)
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> > LOL.. ^_^
> >
> >
> > You got me there O_o
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Ronin-----
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > no one ever scrolls down! I love it!
> > > "p.s. the last 2 don't exist"
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> > > > Shadows over mexico??? what's this??
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------Ronin------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "The King of Chickens 2001"
> > > > > <chickenno1@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > What are the abilities (knowledges, skills, talents) that
> are
> > > not
> > > > > >included in the core rules? I know Cybernetics (not the
> > > background
> > > > > >one) is one of them.....
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ability-type-source
> > > > >
> > > > > science-knowledge-secrets o shadowloo,
> > > > > cybernetics-knowledge-phb,
> > > > > bookie and publicist-both skills-both from phb,
> > > > > manage-talent-phb,
> > > > > linguistics-knowledge-perfect warrior
> > > > > searching and instruction-both talents-both screen
> > > > > demolitions, disguise, and repair-all skills-all screen
> > > > > finance and law-both knowledges-both screen
> > > > > meditation-skill-shadows over mexico
> > > > > gambling-talent-shadows over mexico
> > > > >
> > > > > also i basically allow players to have an ability for
> anything
> > > they
> > > > > can possibly think of or swipe from other white wolf games.
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > p.s. the last 2 don't exist

If you want to be a player in Streetfighter sometime, just check out
my online PBEM campaign.. It will be fun.

Right now we're finishing a tourney, but afterwards we'll be sending
the players out on hazardous adventuring ^_^


The list is at : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sf_uw_forum/

Hope to see you there ^_^

-----Galin-----

--- In streetfighter@y..., "thy_sorrow" <shallow_one@h...> wrote:
> Well, until a few weeks ago I was a full time d&d player... but I'm
> sick of the dm's Ihave, so I left all the games... pretty lonely
> too... but I figure I'll find some other ones...
>
> As for white wolf, it's my game. I love it. But I'm like the only
> Storteller in my area, and most of the people here are into D&D or
> Warhammer... so no players... really sucks..only managed to find
> Street Fighter players...and thier giving me a hard time...
>
> anyways, time will help me ...I hope :OÞ

--- necro6hit <ringthief@...> wrote:

> --- In streetfighter@y..., "thy_sorrow"
> <shallow_one@h...> wrote:
> > I agree, thats why in the few games I've played or
> DMed, we usualy
> > leave honor to the player. If he believes he
> diserves it, he gives
> > himself one. It's not how people see him, but how
> he feels. Up to
> now
>
> Not a bad idea....

Until you get a power gamer in who thinks hmm more
honor means more willpower I can recover and more
willpower means more super moves... Then you slap em
down hard and fast.

>
>
> > By the way, I love Mage... best concept I've ever
> seen. Too bad I
> > don't know anyone who likes the game as I do.

That's cause mages are dirty hippies. ;-) Only the
tecnocracy can save us.

> >
>
>
> mage was the first white wolf game i played.
> it mostly stayed in my friends trunk cuz no one ever
> took the time to
> figure out the dot system, but i took the time to
> read about it one
> day and found it actually quite simple.
>
> we been hooked on white wolf ever since (still play
> DnD though too)
>
> Matt
>
>

__________________________________________________
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>I only have a very deep understanding of the christian religion, but
>unlike most christians, I realize I would be a hypocrite to think
>your evil. who am i to judge.
>
>close minded, holier than thou ppl do not define good and evil, they
>only claim to.
>
>blessed be,
>Matt

Damn straight man. I have HUGE problems with things that the catholic
church has done in the past, but nothing against the people. It's like, "I
don't like that people preaching the supposed 'good word' came into my
ancestors contry & almost destroyed their ways & language; But that dosn't
have ANYTHING to do with a person I meet on the street who has a cross
around their neck." I have no gripes with anyone, unless they try to hurt
me or something, but at the same time, I'm annoyed that I can't speak the
language that my fore fathers did, because some people didn't stop to think
"hey, maybe it's bad to hurt people in the name of love". & in closing, I
would like to say that Matt seems to be totally right, in that honor in the
game is clearly defined, so shouldn't really be a point of contention.
Except that someone might have a quibble about the stat being called
"honor", but in that case, it really dosn't matter, it could be called
"bubble bobble", it would still work the same in the game. I'm sorry, I'll
stop ranting now.

Darklight

(ok, I have a few problems with people who preach a religion who don't have
a clue about it, like a catholic who hasn't read the Bible)

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

You said that it's easy to support copyright when you have the books and I pointed out that have 3 and a part sets, it had nothing to do with you giving them away as prizes which I am aware of, and I also said I couldn't find the pcitures so I couldn't help you.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> no, you were SAYING i had 3 and a part sets.
> Im not sure WHAT you were implying.
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > I was implying that you have 3 and a part sets.
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away at my
> own
> > > loss.
> > >
> > > this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone
> bitched
> > > and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away
> original,
> > > and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.
> > >
> > > because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight of
> not
> > > having the books despite my having them.
> > >
> > > what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this my
> thanks?
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a
> part
> > > sets..
> > > >
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of
> the
> > > > > woodwork.
> > > > >
> > > > > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when
> you
> > > have
> > > > > all the books...
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the
> books,
> > > but
> > > > > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > > > > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can
> all
> > > > > share? :P
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other
> > > people
> > > > > suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not
> likeit's a
> > > > > collector's item or anything.......
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WarlockFM.

----- Original Message -----

From: Jason Obeston

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:29 AM

Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu

*Sigh* I'm a pagan.  To many that makes me outright
evil.  My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
do as ye will".  Basically a variant of the golden
rule every religion has.  Evil can many times just be
a matter of perspective.  Um to take an example from
star wars.  Luke blew up the death star a planet
destroying weapon.  It do so he destroyed millions to
billions of people.  I'm pretty sure to the families
of those people what he did was an evil act. 



--- necro6hit <ringthief@...> wrote:
> i think thats wrong.
> honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or
> anyone, who does
> anything, COULD be honorable)
> it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of
> behavior.
>
> morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.
>
> and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
> I dont believe that either.
> someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their
> honor, or they can
> demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt
> mean it is an
> honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in
> the name of
> honor.
>
> I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can
> live a life of
> EVIL, and HONOR at the same time.  I dont think an
> explanation exists
> for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im
> wrong.
>
> keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding
> other ppl honor
> you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or
> lawfull, and its not
> only if  you fight fair or not, and its definately
> not whatever
> anyone person wants it to be at any given
> time(ruling out things
> being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS
> code). having some
> code of conduct in general doesnt make you
> honorable.
>
> I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that
> might change my
> mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil
> and honorable..
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao"
> <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing to
> do with good
> > or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of
> behavior.
> > One CAN be evil and honorable at the same time!
> > That is, because evil has a point of view. Evil
> can be neccessary
> > or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One can
> be true to one's
> > code of conduct and still be viewed as acting
> morally wrong.
> > Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
> >
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: necro6hit

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 11:05 AM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu

ok, now that this has gone religious i have a few things to say.
specificly since it was brought up how certain ppl might classify a
pagan to be "evil".

there are a lot of ppl out there who call themselves christians then
act like assholes and give us all a bad name.  everyone thinks of
christians as these finger pointing inquisitionists.

I study what the bible actually says as opposed to just listening to
the parts i want to hear like some, and if anyone calls themselves a
christian and judges you for your beliefs, or does not love you on
some level, they are practicing the religion all wrong.

please dont think of christianity in terms of how these ppl act as
they are doing it wrong.

every non-christian ive ever talked to who was arguing against my
religion has used the rationale of:"how can he claim to be a god of
love when all these deaths and atrocities are commited in his name"
the answer of coarse, is the ppl that did those things, were not
practicing his religion correctly.

A christian who actually practices the religion correctly, will not
hate you, persecute you, or judge you based on ANY of your beliefs. 
These are the ones you should define the religion by, because these
are the ones who are doing it right.

(steps off soapbox)
Matt


--- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> *Sigh* I'm a pagan.  To many that makes me outright
> evil.  My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
> do as ye will".  Basically a variant of the golden
> rule every religion has.  Evil can many times just be
> a matter of perspective.  Um to take an example from
> star wars.  Luke blew up the death star a planet
> destroying weapon.  It do so he destroyed millions to
> billions of people.  I'm pretty sure to the families
> of those people what he did was an evil act. 




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: chuangbao

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 12:28 PM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu

> 1. how the bushido defines honor, does not define the true
meaning.
> because sum1 wrote down a rule for samurai that says its
honorable to
> cut peasants heads off if they look you in the eye does not
mean it
> actually IS honorable.  it just means that rule in bushido says it
> is, and samurai believed it.

Sure it is, since honor is always a matter of definition. If everyone
around you believes it to be honorable, it will be.

> 2. feeling like you are compelled to listen to a certain person
and
> do what they say no matter what is simply loyalty and duty.  YES
> obeying your master in and of iteself is honorable as a theory.
but
> if you look at the individual act,  the thing you said was morally
> wrong, you cannot describe it as "honorable". give me a
specific
> example of a morally wrong act and show me how THAT ACT
(not just the
> fact that you obeyed master) is HONORABLE. it aint, every time.

How about killing an important enemy in single hand combat in
a war?
Everyone in your home sure would view you as a hero and since
didn't shoot him without warning, you acted honorably.
But since killing per sé is morally wrong in your country, you did
something bad at the same time.

> 3. just because the samurai said something was honorable
> doesnt mean it was true. those were brutal times. what about
> nazi's? the simple soldier only obeyed his master (hitler) like a
> good little samurai. does that mean that every single atrocity he
> commited can be defined as an "honorable" act?  NO.  when
> you obey your master you are doing something honorable,
> when you comit a moral attrocity you are doing something
> dishonorable. it cancels out, and outweighs the simple act
> of obedience and makes you OVER-ALL a dishonorable
> person. also besides hitler charles manson is a good
> example. he was the master and he gave orders to his cult.
> can you define all the acts they commited as "Honorable"
> because they were following orders of their master? blatantly
> no.

That is because you (and given the examples me too) don't
share the ethics of the people involved...
If a suicide terrorist kills a lot of people, his colleagues might
well view him a very honorable man, even if we do not!

> 4. when you have conflicting morals like "hmm, disobeying
master is
> wrong, yet obeying him and killing these innocents is also
wrong" you
> have to weigh in your mind which is the greater wrong. or
whether or
> not its wrong at all to disobey a sick or demented order. just
> because the samurai had blatant disregard for human life, and
were
> more concerned with their primary directive to obey since they
were
> servants of their lord, does not mean that its really an
honorable
> thing to do. it simply means its your duty as a servant. its your
> duty, to go do something dishonorable.

Her we are again: definition.
We might view it wrong and therefore dishonorable, for them it
was the right thing to do and therefore honorable.

> 5. I would like to address this one single sentence fragment of
yours
> by itself for a moment:
> "acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a samurai
demanded"
> Why do you think "honor" equals something your lord
demands?
> see the conflicting morals(4) thing and the hitler analogy (3)
above.

Not my lord but a samurai's lord - when loosing face is loosing
honor and vice versa.

> Matt

Roland



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: warlockfm

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 8:40 AM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: Streetfighter Books

You said that it's easy to support copyright when you have the books and I pointed out that have 3 and a part sets, it had nothing to do with you giving them away as prizes which I am aware of, and I also said I couldn't find the pcitures so I couldn't help you.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> no, you were SAYING i had 3 and a part sets.
> Im not sure WHAT you were implying.
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > I was implying that you have 3 and a part sets.
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away at my
> own
> > > loss.
> > >
> > > this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone
> bitched
> > > and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away
> original,
> > > and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.
> > >
> > > because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight of
> not
> > > having the books despite my having them.
> > >
> > > what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this my
> thanks?
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a
> part
> > > sets..
> > > >
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of
> the
> > > > > woodwork.
> > > > >
> > > > > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when
> you
> > > have
> > > > > all the books...
> > > > >
> > > > > Matt
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the
> books,
> > > but
> > > > > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > > > > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can
> all
> > > > > share? :P
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other
> > > people
> > > > > suffer because these books are so rare now?  It's not
> likeit's a
> > > > > collector's item or anything.......
> > > > > >
> > > > > > WarlockFM.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

While trying to avoid a religious debate on a board about beating
people up, I can comment on Wicca and other neo-
pagan 'religions'. Most are extremely recent, Wicca is only 50
years old. Neo-Druidism is only 120 years old. N/D is the third
incarnation, the first destroyed by the Romans, the second by the
Scottish. Wicca is a laughing stock among religious scholars.
It's a mish-mash of other religions and organizations. It borrows
heavily from Rosicrucians, Masons, Animism, Kabbalism and even
Roman Catholic ritual. Red the book by its founder, Gilbert
Gordan. It's rather revealing in its exposure of Wicca, though
not intentionally.


---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@...>
Reply-To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:02:46 -0700

>Matt,
>
> Thanks for saying that. Christians in the past did horrible

things, just like almost any group that has been in existance for
so long. There are many Christians that are still "holier than
thou" out there, but there are of those of us who are open minded
as well. I study the bible of my own accord and do not attend the
churches here (although there are many fine Christians who are in
the area). I have been flamed and attacked by the pagen religion
just because I was a Christain. They were doing to me what they
thought I would do to them, but had not. My girlfriend (and soon
to be wife) is a native american and our religions are not the
same. Yet these people attacked me saying Christains were close-
minded buttholes.

> I do not agree with the pagen religion (if I did I would not be

Christian). However, I do not condem it as I know little of it. I
hope it has a strong sense of morals and right from wrong. Most of
all, however, I hope the pagens can do the same for me.

> On a final note, you will find that Christain denominations

talk badly about each other much more than they do other
religions. Sad but true.

>
>J. Scott Pittman
>www.dragonslayergames.com
>Look to Dragonslayer Games for character sketches, the EPICS rpg,

and more!

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: necro6hit
> To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 11:05 AM
> Subject: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu
>
>
> ok, now that this has gone religious i have a few things to say.
> specificly since it was brought up how certain ppl might

classify a

> pagan to be "evil".
>
> there are a lot of ppl out there who call themselves christians

then

> act like assholes and give us all a bad name. everyone thinks

of

> christians as these finger pointing inquisitionists.
>
> I study what the bible actually says as opposed to just

listening to

> the parts i want to hear like some, and if anyone calls

themselves a

> christian and judges you for your beliefs, or does not love you

on

> some level, they are practicing the religion all wrong.
>
> please dont think of christianity in terms of how these ppl act

as

> they are doing it wrong.
>
> every non-christian ive ever talked to who was arguing against

my

> religion has used the rationale of:"how can he claim to be a

god of

> love when all these deaths and atrocities are commited in his

name"

> the answer of coarse, is the ppl that did those things, were

not

> practicing his religion correctly.
>
> A christian who actually practices the religion correctly, will

not

> hate you, persecute you, or judge you based on ANY of your

beliefs.

> These are the ones you should define the religion by, because

these

> are the ones who are doing it right.
>
> (steps off soapbox)
> Matt
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> > *Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me outright
> > evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
> > do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
> > rule every religion has. Evil can many times just be
> > a matter of perspective. Um to take an example from
> > star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
> > destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions to
> > billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the families
> > of those people what he did was an evil act.
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

>
>
>

________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

  In a role-playing game, the game master is that higher power.

 

---

 

But each individual has the freedom of will to disagree with that higher power. You just might have to live with not having access to the "good" bonus that is "Honor."

 

In Street Fighter, the storyteller doesn't control good or evil, merely honorable and dishonorable.

 

Tony "Knight of the Black Rose" Figueroa
Street Fighter RPG/STG: http://home.fuse.net/shermie/

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Tony Figueroa" <tony.figueroa@f...> wrote:

> In Street Fighter, the storyteller doesn't control good or evil,
>merely honorable and dishonorable.

but "IN STREETFIGHTER" The "Honor" stat does have a lot to do with
good and evil.

it is defined in the book as a measure of your morals.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Dennis Bryant" <gvwinterdawn@h...> wrote:

> Damn straight man. I have HUGE problems with things that the

catholic

> church has done in the past, but nothing against the people.

>But that dosn't
> have ANYTHING to do with a person I meet on the street who has a

cross

> around their neck." I have no gripes with anyone, unless they try

to hurt

> me or something,

I like what you say about not holding all christians responsible for
all past christians actions.

It is also important to realize that you cant hold the religion
responsible either. the ppl who do bad things in the name of God are
not following the bible. they are writing there own rules.

the catholic church is not the final say of what is "Christian"
either.

I was saying ppl who defend copyrights because they have all the
books and dont need copies, suck.

when you pointed out that i have 3 sets o books i took that to mean
you were comparing me to those sucky ppl. (even though i dont defend
copyright laws in this case)

sorry if i was wrong.
I couldnt see any other reason you would come out at that exact
moment to post how many books i had.

I obviously know what i have, so I figured by pointing it out you
could only be trying to make a point.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> You said that it's easy to support copyright when you have the
books and I pointed out that have 3 and a part sets, it had nothing
to do with you giving them away as prizes which I am aware of, and I
also said I couldn't find the pcitures so I couldn't help you.
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > no, you were SAYING i had 3 and a part sets.
> > Im not sure WHAT you were implying.
> >
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > I was implying that you have 3 and a part sets.
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away
at my
> > own
> > > > loss.
> > > >
> > > > this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone
> > bitched
> > > > and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away
> > original,
> > > > and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.
> > > >
> > > > because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight
of
> > not
> > > > having the books despite my having them.
> > > >
> > > > what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this
my
> > thanks?
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > > right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a
> > part
> > > > sets..
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...>
wrote:
> > > > > > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out
of
> > the
> > > > > > woodwork.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles
when
> > you
> > > > have
> > > > > > all the books...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Matt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...>
wrote:
> > > > > > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the
> > books,
> > > > but
> > > > > > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > > > > > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we
can
> > all
> > > > > > share? :P
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make
other
> > > > people
> > > > > > suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not
> > likeit's a
> > > > > > collector's item or anything.......
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > WarlockFM.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:

> Regardless of how someone views it, any action is good or evil.

(snipped)

> J. Scott Pittman

thanks voice of reason.
personally, i wouldnt turn my back on any of these ppl who dont
believe anything is really good or evil.

its seems almost like they feel being moral is some burden that
public oppinion and general consensus has placed on them.

like they dont want to be moral but feel they have to because of what
is considered acceptable in society, so they just play along on the
surface.

scary ppl.

but thats just the impression they give off, Im not saying thats what
they actually think.
:)
Matt

>I like what you say about not holding all christians responsible for
>all past christians actions.
>
>It is also important to realize that you cant hold the religion
>responsible either. the ppl who do bad things in the name of God are
>not following the bible. they are writing there own rules.
>
>the catholic church is not the final say of what is "Christian"
>either.

Yeah, I totally understand that. My mother was raised a Catholic(she spoke
Latin before english because of it), & they never even let her look at the
old testament. About the only thing I have agaist the religion is that it
seems more & more of the bible keeps getting edited out! For example, in
Genesis 6 the Catholic Bible has the stuff about the Nephillem(sp?), yet the
Gideons(King James) has all direct mention of them removed. My main gripe
there is just cause I hate censorship. I don't hold the religion
responsible for the atrocities caused to my people, but to the inderviduals
operating in it's name at the time. After all, Churchill & Hitler were both
christians.

DarkLight

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

So in short, killing evil people is not evil - right?
Or in the given example, killing millions of people that follow
some evil people (because they know no better) is good?

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> Luke had to blow up the Death Star to help the rebels, which
the light side of the Force led him to do (meaning, in the Star
Wars universe, that the action was the right thing to do).
Regardless of perspective, the action was the correct one. If the
families of the people who were killed thought Luke was evil,
they were simply wrong, not right from another perspective. The
Death Star, which the killed were there to protect, would have led
to the enslavement of the universe at the hands of the Dark Side.
>
> J. Scott Pittman
> www.dragonslayergames.com
> Look to Dragonslayer Games for character sketches, the
> EPICS rpg, and more!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jason Obeston
> To: streetfighter@y...
> Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu
>
>
> *Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me outright
> evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
> do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
> rule every religion has. Evil can many times just be
> a matter of perspective. Um to take an example from
> star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
> destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions to
> billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the families
> of those people what he did was an evil act.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:

> Regardless of how someone views it, any action is good or
> evil. What was the cause of the warriors in the war in question?

Is that really important when it comes to killing people?

> If the one killed was a slave master of horrible intentions, then
> the killing of that warrior was the right thing to do on the
> battlefield (don't get me started on the right and wrong of war),
> regardless of how his family, friends, and countrymen viewed
> it.

Why not just capture him and throw him in jail. There should be
always a better option than killing someone from a GOOD point
of view.

> Terrorist bombings are an evil act, regardless of the common
> view. just because I thought is was okay, and if everyone else
> thought it was okay, does not make it okay.

I didn't say it was good or OK, just that some people might view it
as honorable.

> I suppose this brings up the question of "why not"? That's were
> you have to start asking yourself if there is a higher power of
> some kind that judges actions as good or evil. If there is such
> a power, then individual (or even group) opinions do not make
> a diffrence in the definition of an action as good or evil.

IF there is ...

> In a role-playing game, the game master is that higher power.

I DO believe in gamemasters ;-)

>
> J. Scott Pittman

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:

> --- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> > Regardless of how someone views it, any action is good or
> > evil. What was the cause of the warriors in the war in question?
>
> Is that really important when it comes to killing people?

is the reasn important?
yes, duh.

> > If the one killed was a slave master of horrible intentions, then
> > the killing of that warrior was the right thing to do on the
> > battlefield (don't get me started on the right and wrong of war),
> > regardless of how his family, friends, and countrymen viewed
> > it.
>
> Why not just capture him and throw him in jail. There should be
> always a better option than killing someone from a GOOD point
> of view.

in situations of war it is often him or you. capture isnt always an
option. kill or be killed.

> > Terrorist bombings are an evil act, regardless of the common
> > view. just because I thought is was okay, and if everyone else
> > thought it was okay, does not make it okay.
>
> I didn't say it was good or OK, just that some people might view it
> as honorable.

yes, but how "some ppl view it" doesnt make it so.

> > I suppose this brings up the question of "why not"? That's were
> > you have to start asking yourself if there is a higher power of
> > some kind that judges actions as good or evil. If there is such
> > a power, then individual (or even group) opinions do not make
> > a diffrence in the definition of an action as good or evil.
>
> IF there is ...
>
> > In a role-playing game, the game master is that higher power.
>
> I DO believe in gamemasters ;-)
>

M

> > In Street Fighter, the storyteller doesn't control good or evil,
> >merely honorable and dishonorable.

He doesn't (or at least shouldn't) control it, but judges it (and
controls the awards given to the characters) according to the
guidelines given in the books.

> but "IN STREETFIGHTER" The "Honor" stat does have a lot to
> do with good and evil.
>
> it is defined in the book as a measure of your morals.

It does so, but not exclusively by that measure. The renown
tables give examples of actions I wouldn't define purely as good.
(e.g. "defeating a more powerful foe"; it doesn't state whether that
opponent is good or evil...)

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:

> So in short, killing evil people is not evil - right?
> Or in the given example, killing millions of people that follow
> some evil people (because they know no better) is good?
>
> Roland
>

the given example is in the start wars universe.
in the given example, in that reality, yes it was good.
there is a tangeable good and evil "Force" there, and it was the will
of the light side of the force...

real life and star wars are not the same thing.

in real life though, i believe it is good to kill evil ppl only when
that is the only way to stop them from doing even worse.

but my perception does not define it "good", and I could be wrong.

Matt

> --- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> > Luke had to blow up the Death Star to help the rebels, which
> the light side of the Force led him to do (meaning, in the Star
> Wars universe, that the action was the right thing to do).
> Regardless of perspective, the action was the correct one. If the
> families of the people who were killed thought Luke was evil,
> they were simply wrong, not right from another perspective. The
> Death Star, which the killed were there to protect, would have led
> to the enslavement of the universe at the hands of the Dark Side.
> >
> > J. Scott Pittman
> > www.dragonslayergames.com
> > Look to Dragonslayer Games for character sketches, the
> > EPICS rpg, and more!
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jason Obeston
> > To: streetfighter@y...
> > Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu
> >
> >
> > *Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me outright
> > evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
> > do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
> > rule every religion has. Evil can many times just be
> > a matter of perspective. Um to take an example from
> > star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
> > destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions to
> > billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the families
> > of those people what he did was an evil act.

> > > Regardless of how someone views it, any action is good or
> > > evil. What was the cause of the warriors in the war in

question?

> >
> > Is that really important when it comes to killing people?
>
> is the reason important?
> yes, duh.

If a reason makes a difference than it gets a point of view...

> > > If the one killed was a slave master of horrible intentions,
> > > then the killing of that warrior was the right thing to do on
> > > the battlefield (don't get me started on the right and wrong
> > > of war), regardless of how his family, friends, and
> > > countrymen viewed it.
> >
> > Why not just capture him and throw him in jail. There should
> > be always a better option than killing someone from a GOOD
> > point of view.
>
> in situations of war it is often him or you. capture isnt always an
> option. kill or be killed.

Then get killed! Killing is evil, being killed is not ...

> > > Terrorist bombings are an evil act, regardless of the
> > > common view. just because I thought is was okay, and if
> > > everyone else thought it was okay, does not make it okay.
> >
> > I didn't say it was good or OK, just that some people might
> > view it as honorable.
>
> yes, but how "some ppl view it" doesnt make it so.

From your point of view ...

Roland

In my experience, debating real-life good/evil, honor/dishonor, or
religion always turns ugly.

I think we should limit future conversations in the group here about
this subject to in-game use as a game system.

That way it won't turn ugly AND its not off-topic.

If anyone wants to talk to me about real life concepts of honor,
good, or religion I would be happy to swap e-mail with you but I
don't think this e-group is the place for it.

Feel free to disagree and continue posting about it, but i think I'm
done with it unless it goes off-list.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:

> > > > Regardless of how someone views it, any action is good or
> > > > evil. What was the cause of the warriors in the war in
> question?
> > >
> > > Is that really important when it comes to killing people?
> >
> > is the reason important?
> > yes, duh.
>
> If a reason makes a difference than it gets a point of view...

just to clarify that:
a reason you do something and a point of view are not the same thing.
a point of view is a way of looking at that reason. but reason is the
cause of an effect.

> > > > If the one killed was a slave master of horrible intentions,
> > > > then the killing of that warrior was the right thing to do on
> > > > the battlefield (don't get me started on the right and wrong
> > > > of war), regardless of how his family, friends, and
> > > > countrymen viewed it.
> > >
> > > Why not just capture him and throw him in jail. There should
> > > be always a better option than killing someone from a GOOD
> > > point of view.
> >
> > in situations of war it is often him or you. capture isnt always

an

> > option. kill or be killed.
>
> Then get killed! Killing is evil, being killed is not ...

oh silly me, i didnt realize what comes out of your mouth is the
universal truth. any other proclamations about killing?

> > > > Terrorist bombings are an evil act, regardless of the
> > > > common view. just because I thought is was okay, and if
> > > > everyone else thought it was okay, does not make it okay.
> > >
> > > I didn't say it was good or OK, just that some people might
> > > view it as honorable.
> >
> > yes, but how "some ppl view it" doesnt make it so.
>
> From your point of view ...

which in some ppl's oppinion is relavent and in some ppls oppinion is
not (point of view).

can we just stop?

Matt

Matt, how are things about your tournament?
Will it start soon? - Just so I know :-)

Roland

it will start today.
sometime between now and me sleeping, which is often actually early
tommorow morning but whos counting.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> Matt, how are things about your tournament?
> Will it start soon? - Just so I know :-)
>
> Roland

Im done talking about whats good or honorable here, but i will
comment on the relationship of perception and truth which was brought
up in that other debate.

was the world ever flat?
could you ever sail off the side?
did the sun ever revolve around the stationary earth?
is bathing bad for you?

these things were all perceived as true by everyone at different
points in history, but the actual truth still existed despite what
ppl believed.

Matt

Did you get my revised character?

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> it will start today.
> sometime between now and me sleeping, which is often actually early
> tommorow morning but whos counting.
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > Matt, how are things about your tournament?
> > Will it start soon? - Just so I know :-)
> >
> > Roland

So you're saying that we should use our maniuplation+charisma+wits roll to subvert and/or make up our own truths to enforce on other characters?

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> Im done talking about whats good or honorable here, but i will
> comment on the relationship of perception and truth which was brought
> up in that other debate.
>
> was the world ever flat?
> could you ever sail off the side?
> did the sun ever revolve around the stationary earth?
> is bathing bad for you?
>
> these things were all perceived as true by everyone at different
> points in history, but the actual truth still existed despite what
> ppl believed.
>
> Matt

----- Original Message -----

From: chuangbao

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 2:39 PM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu

So in short, killing evil people is not evil - right?
Or in the given example, killing millions of people that follow
some evil people (because they know no better) is good?

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> Luke had to blow up the Death Star to help the rebels, which
the light side of the Force led him to do (meaning, in the Star
Wars universe, that the action was the right thing to do).
Regardless of perspective, the action was the correct one. If the
families of the people who were killed thought Luke was evil,
they were simply wrong, not right from another perspective. The
Death Star, which the killed were there to protect, would have led
to the enslavement of the universe at the hands of the Dark Side.
>
> J. Scott Pittman
> www.dragonslayergames.com
> Look to Dragonslayer Games for character sketches, the
> EPICS rpg, and more!
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jason Obeston
>   To: streetfighter@y...
>   Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:29 AM
>   Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu
>
>
>   *Sigh* I'm a pagan.  To many that makes me outright
>   evil.  My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
>   do as ye will".  Basically a variant of the golden
>   rule every religion has.  Evil can many times just be
>   a matter of perspective.  Um to take an example from
>   star wars.  Luke blew up the death star a planet
>   destroying weapon.  It do so he destroyed millions to
>   billions of people.  I'm pretty sure to the families
>   of those people what he did was an evil act. 



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: chuangbao

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 2:39 PM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu

So in short, killing evil people is not evil - right?
Or in the given example, killing millions of people that follow
some evil people (because they know no better) is good?

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> Luke had to blow up the Death Star to help the rebels, which
the light side of the Force led him to do (meaning, in the Star
Wars universe, that the action was the right thing to do).
Regardless of perspective, the action was the correct one. If the
families of the people who were killed thought Luke was evil,
they were simply wrong, not right from another perspective. The
Death Star, which the killed were there to protect, would have led
to the enslavement of the universe at the hands of the Dark Side.
>
> J. Scott Pittman
> www.dragonslayergames.com
> Look to Dragonslayer Games for character sketches, the
> EPICS rpg, and more!
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jason Obeston
>   To: streetfighter@y...
>   Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 7:29 AM
>   Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu
>
>
>   *Sigh* I'm a pagan.  To many that makes me outright
>   evil.  My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
>   do as ye will".  Basically a variant of the golden
>   rule every religion has.  Evil can many times just be
>   a matter of perspective.  Um to take an example from
>   star wars.  Luke blew up the death star a planet
>   destroying weapon.  It do so he destroyed millions to
>   billions of people.  I'm pretty sure to the families
>   of those people what he did was an evil act. 



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: chuangbao

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 2:49 PM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: new topic... Ryu

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> Regardless of how someone views it, any action is good or
> evil. What was the cause of the warriors in the war in question?

Is that really important when it comes to killing people?

> If the one killed was a slave master of horrible intentions, then
> the killing of that warrior was the right thing to do on the
> battlefield (don't get me started on the right and wrong of war),
> regardless of how his family, friends, and countrymen viewed
> it.

Why not just capture him and throw him in jail. There should be
always a better option than killing someone from a GOOD point
of view.

> Terrorist bombings are an evil act, regardless of the common
> view. just because I thought is was okay, and if everyone else
> thought it was okay, does not make it okay.

I didn't say it was good or OK, just that some people might view it
as honorable.

> I suppose this brings up the question of "why not"? That's were
> you have to start asking yourself if there is a higher power of
> some kind that judges actions as good or evil. If there is such
> a power, then individual (or even group) opinions do not make
> a diffrence in the definition of an action as good or evil.

IF there is ...

> In a role-playing game, the game master is that higher power.

I DO believe in gamemasters ;-)

>
> J. Scott Pittman

Roland



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Someone may commit evil actions but not be evil themselves. They may think
the actions are justified for the greater good or be misguided. (In which
case, their intentions were good, but . . .)

Killing is evil, but it may be necessary to save lives or defend oneself. In
what way or intent someone does it makes them evil.

I don't think any action can be either good or evil, but there can be
several factors, each one being either good or evil.

My personal view of evil is whether or not someone respects other people's
lives (and all the things that go with it). And because I feel strongly
about good and evil, I of course think that what I think is the only one
truth and anyone who feels differently is wrong. Of course, I expect anyone
to feel the same way about their belief and respect them. But, I don't think
I can always judge correctly and say for certain whether or not I think
something is good or evil (I've been in and seen too many philosophical
debates to believe I'm always capable of making the correct decision as to
whether or not something is good or bad - but I think there is always an
answer even if it is: "No matter what you do it's bad so you're screwed").

Tony