i think its important to make a distinction between the ACTUAL
definition of honor, and WHITE WOLFS definition of honor.

yes honor and good are different.

but in the game, i think "honor" represents good/evil.

they even dock you honor for swearing for petes sake!

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Herve Gander" <gander@s...> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I think it's important to make the distinction between good and
honor....
> One can be honorable and be evil.
> Thus, Ryu is an honorable fighter...as he don't use bad trick or
abuse a
> situation were an ennemy is too weak to fight...
>
> In my opinion, Ryu tend to be a good guy (helping those in need
etc...),
> but being a good guy don't mean being non-violent...
> As being evil don't mean being a sadistic, ultraviolent fighter...
>
> Hope this can answer the topic
>
> Herve

Well I remember we talk about Street Figtht and Undead not vampires but
zoombies or skeletons, for example if you can´t dizzy a zombie, and maybe
your Wounded knee doesn´t work, about kick the wolf, it´s good but I not
recomend mix World of Darkness and Street Fighter, this fruit salad give a
good headache to the Game Master.

heh, me and my irl best friend often have the same conversation.
not that we neccesarily believe it but just for the sake of argument
we make ryu out to be totally evil, and it aint hard.

then, since were just having fun, we usually list all the reasons
some bad guy is actually good.

like Gill. "he wants to make the world a utopia and lead us all into
evolution. what a villian! what a bad guy!"

or akuma

why can ken have a wife and kid but ryus so sick with power lust he
cant maintain a normal relationship with anyone? for god sakes his
best friend in the world is simply "that guy i constantly beat up
(ken)"

heh

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., Abbadon240@a... wrote:
> Hi Guys
> It has been a while since I have been on (I hate/love School)
and have
> been catching up on old topics. As I read the Akuma conversation a
question
> hit me. Is Ryu Really Honorable or good?
>

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the streetfighter
group.

File : /Matt's/honor-good.html
Uploaded by : necro6hit <ringthief@...>
Description : On the relationship of Honor to good/evil

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/streetfighter/files/Matt%27s/honor-good.html

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

necro6hit <ringthief@...>

Speaking about bad guy/good guy...

In the video streetfighter 2, i really love the only real good guy of the
story ......bison.

Yes he is the good guy, the only one who want to save the planet from the
destruction and who spend all his ressources to buy part of the amozonian
forest.....really a good guy....

beside that we have two young bully (ruy and ken), and their only way to
spend their time : finding someone to reduce to pulp with a fight.....

So what? who is the good guy and who are the bad guys?

so when will we have a campaign based on the shadowlaw(or loo as you want)
trying to get out of the grisp of the dreaded ryu.....muwahahahahahahaha

:P

herve

Is Ryu Really Honorable or good?

>
> Think about it. Hear are my thoughts
> 1. "the fight is all that matters" (street fighter II)

- Is fighting always a bad thing ?
How aboubt: Fighting to protect something (family, land, one's
rights, etc)?

> 2. All he really does is roam the world seeking stronger

opponents to test

> his skills.

- Is trying to be perfect a bad thing in itself?

> 3. He never stops to smell the roses.

- Has "the good guy" to be romantic or perfect in all things?

> 4. Somewhere in his soul he has an "Evil/killing Intent"

- Who's perfect?

> 5. Though he does the right thing and helps people he does it

in a violent

> way (anime)

- Here we are again: "Fight for your rights!"

> well I don't know, I dig Ryu, he kicks ass but that's all he does

his persona

> has no depth and dose not grow

- In other word: He's the prototype of a Hollywood good guy ...

And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing to do with good
or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of behavior.
One CAN be evil and honorable at the same time!
That is, because evil has a point of view. Evil can be neccessary
or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One can be true to one's
code of conduct and still be viewed as acting morally wrong.
Honor can even FORCE evil acts!

In my point of view, Ryu is a "good guy" because he helps people
which are not strong enough to fight for themselves.
And here we are again: Fighting does not make one evil! It's the
reason one fights for, that defines our actions!

just a point of view...
Roland

Actually, Didn't Ryu only draw once with Ken and they never actually fought it out again? (besides when they trained together) I haven't seen the anime series when they were young, so I'm not sure, but according to the game sheets and the video games, they never fight each other. They've always wanted to have another bout, but something always interrupts the fight, so I can't say that ryu's best friend is someone he just beats up, rather, it should be "someone I want to beat up". ^_^

Had to write something cuz I'm bored.
WarlockFM

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> heh, me and my irl best friend often have the same conversation.
> not that we neccesarily believe it but just for the sake of argument
> we make ryu out to be totally evil, and it aint hard.
>
> then, since were just having fun, we usually list all the reasons
> some bad guy is actually good.
>
> like Gill. "he wants to make the world a utopia and lead us all into
> evolution. what a villian! what a bad guy!"
>
> or akuma
>
> why can ken have a wife and kid but ryus so sick with power lust he
> cant maintain a normal relationship with anyone? for god sakes his
> best friend in the world is simply "that guy i constantly beat up
> (ken)"
>
> heh
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., Abbadon240@a... wrote:
> > Hi Guys
> > It has been a while since I have been on (I hate/love School)
> and have
> > been catching up on old topics. As I read the Akuma conversation a
> question
> > hit me. Is Ryu Really Honorable or good?
> >

i think thats wrong.
honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or anyone, who does
anything, COULD be honorable)
it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of behavior.

morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.

and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
I dont believe that either.
someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their honor, or they can
demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt mean it is an
honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in the name of
honor.

I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can live a life of
EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think an explanation exists
for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im wrong.

keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding other ppl honor
you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or lawfull, and its not
only if you fight fair or not, and its definately not whatever
anyone person wants it to be at any given time(ruling out things
being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS code). having some
code of conduct in general doesnt make you honorable.

I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that might change my
mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil and honorable..

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing to do with good
> or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of behavior.
> One CAN be evil and honorable at the same time!
> That is, because evil has a point of view. Evil can be neccessary
> or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One can be true to one's
> code of conduct and still be viewed as acting morally wrong.
> Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
>

Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the books, but why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can all share? :P

I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other people suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not likeit's a collector's item or anything.......

WarlockFM.

I think honor demands respect, and if you lose the respect of people because you did something that peope find immoral or makes them disrepect you then it is dishonorable. I find it hard that someone would respect you out of fear because you could beat him/her up, but because you have some quality they want/like or admire. So although my explanation is incoherent and doesn't answer much, but...anyways

WarlockFM.
(Streetfighter crazy these last few days)

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> i think thats wrong.
> honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or anyone, who does
> anything, COULD be honorable)
> it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of behavior.
>
> morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.
>
> and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
> I dont believe that either.
> someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their honor, or they can
> demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt mean it is an
> honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in the name of
> honor.
>
> I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can live a life of
> EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think an explanation exists
> for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im wrong.
>
> keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding other ppl honor
> you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or lawfull, and its not
> only if you fight fair or not, and its definately not whatever
> anyone person wants it to be at any given time(ruling out things
> being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS code). having some
> code of conduct in general doesnt make you honorable.
>
> I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that might change my
> mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil and honorable..
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing to do with good
> > or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of behavior.
> > One CAN be evil and honorable at the same time!
> > That is, because evil has a point of view. Evil can be neccessary
> > or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One can be true to one's
> > code of conduct and still be viewed as acting morally wrong.
> > Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
> >

"Honor" as a game system (as opposed to a broad concept) is defined
by white wolf on page 55 of the main sourcebook.

"Honor represents your characters MORALS both in and out of the ring."

(IMO from here on)
is someone going to tell me "MORALS" has nothing to do with good and
bad?

LOL

in each of our private lives we all might have different ideas of
what "honor" or "good" or "bad" means to us individually, but when
playing a structured game with rules, the definition that counts is
the games definition (barring the golden rule).

above, the game defines honor as morals, which is good/evil.
On the renown chart on page 56 it defines what specific acts are
honorable and what are not, regardless of a characters (like akuma's)
personal code or view.

Honor is black and white as a game system.
As a real-life concept its debatable because theres no "big book of
life's rules" but in a game-world, we have the definition (above)
from the game-book.

M

I allways thought of Ryu as the clasic Japanese wandering Ronin, seeking to
perfect oneself & helping those you meet on your travels. The old clasic,
which was copyed in a lot of westerns as well, y'know, the old 'a lone heor
comes to a town, he dosn't really want to get involved, but ends up saving
the village, because that's the right thing to do. That's how Ryu allways
came across to me, anyway.

Darklight

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

TRIUGUN!

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Dennis Bryant" <gvwinterdawn@h...> wrote:
> I allways thought of Ryu as the clasic Japanese wandering Ronin, seeking to
> perfect oneself & helping those you meet on your travels. The old clasic,
> which was copyed in a lot of westerns as well, y'know, the old 'a lone heor
> comes to a town, he dosn't really want to get involved, but ends up saving
> the village, because that's the right thing to do. That's how Ryu allways
> came across to me, anyway.
>
> Darklight
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of the
woodwork.

little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when you have
all the books...

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the books, but
why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can all
share? :P
>
> I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other people
suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not likeit's a
collector's item or anything.......
>
> WarlockFM.

Shadows over mexico??? what's this??


------Ronin------

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "The King of Chickens 2001"
> <chickenno1@h...> wrote:
> > What are the abilities (knowledges, skills, talents) that are not
> >included in the core rules? I know Cybernetics (not the background
> >one) is one of them.....
>
>
> ability-type-source
>
> science-knowledge-secrets o shadowloo,
> cybernetics-knowledge-phb,
> bookie and publicist-both skills-both from phb,
> manage-talent-phb,
> linguistics-knowledge-perfect warrior
> searching and instruction-both talents-both screen
> demolitions, disguise, and repair-all skills-all screen
> finance and law-both knowledges-both screen
> meditation-skill-shadows over mexico
> gambling-talent-shadows over mexico
>
> also i basically allow players to have an ability for anything they
> can possibly think of or swipe from other white wolf games.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> p.s. the last 2 don't exist

I will give you the answer, Kevin Siembieda (Palladium Books,
RIFTS) gave: "Aberrant Evil".

This is a person who is driven to attain his goals through force,
power, and intimidation. Yet the aberrant person stands apart
from the norm, with his own, personal code of ethics (although
twisted ethics by the standards of good). He expects loyality from
his minions, punishing disloyality and treachery with a swift,
merciful death. An aberrant person will always keep his word of
honor and uphold any bargains. He will define his terms and live
by them, whether anyone else likes it or not.
Aberrant characters will ...
1. Always keep his word of honor (he is honorable).
2. Lie to and cheat those not worthy of his respect.
3. May or may not kill an unarmed foe.
4. Not kill (may harm, kidnap) an innocent, particularly a child.
5. Never kills for pleasure.
6. Not resort to inhumane treatment of prisoners, but torture,
although distasteful, is a neccessary means of extracting
information.
7. Never torture for pleasure.
8. May or may not help someone in need.
9. Work with others to maintain his goals.
10. Respects honor and self-discipline.
11. Never betray a friend.

I think that sums it up pretty good.

And for the forcing part of honor: Samurai literature is full of
morally wrong acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a
samurai demanded of him. The bushido is a form of code of
conduct that demands loyalyty and obedience to ones lord above
all else and defines honor by that terms.

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> i think thats wrong.
> honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or anyone,
who does
> anything, COULD be honorable)
> it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of behavior.
>
> morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.
>
> and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
> I dont believe that either.
> someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their honor, or they
can
> demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt mean it is
an
> honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in the
name of
> honor.
>
> I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can live a life
of
> EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think an
explanation exists
> for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im wrong.
>
> keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding other
ppl honor
> you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or lawfull, and its
not
> only if you fight fair or not, and its definately not whatever
> anyone person wants it to be at any given time(ruling out things
> being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS code).
having some
> code of conduct in general doesnt make you honorable.
>
> I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that might
change my
> mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil and honorable..
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing to do with
good
> > or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of behavior.
> > One CAN be evil and honorable at the same time!
> > That is, because evil has a point of view. Evil can be
neccessary
> > or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One can be true to
one's
> > code of conduct and still be viewed as acting morally wrong.
> > Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
> >

Here I'm with you.
And by this definition, Ryu is the most honorable (and therefore
good) guy in the books ...

Roland

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> "Honor" as a game system (as opposed to a broad concept) is
defined
> by white wolf on page 55 of the main sourcebook.
>
> "Honor represents your characters MORALS both in and out of
the ring."
>
> (IMO from here on)
> is someone going to tell me "MORALS" has nothing to do with
good and
> bad?
>
> LOL
>
> in each of our private lives we all might have different ideas of
> what "honor" or "good" or "bad" means to us individually, but
when
> playing a structured game with rules, the definition that counts
is
> the games definition (barring the golden rule).
>
> above, the game defines honor as morals, which is good/evil.
> On the renown chart on page 56 it defines what specific acts
are
> honorable and what are not, regardless of a characters (like
akuma's)
> personal code or view.
>
> Honor is black and white as a game system.
> As a real-life concept its debatable because theres no "big
book of
> life's rules" but in a game-world, we have the definition (above)
> from the game-book.
>
> M

As far as I'm concerned, that bit in the book about Honor
representing morality is overruled by the system for regaining Chi
and Willpower with Honor. Why would being a nice guy give you a
stronger will? That makes no sense.

Shadows over Mexico according to Mike Tinney, never left the development
stage. No copies were made, as it was never finished. So I think you need
to recheck your information here, because according to WW, Shadows Over
Mexico never existsed.

----- Original Message -----
From: "galin_ra" <randerssen@...>
To: <streetfighter@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:09 PM
Subject: [streetfighter] Re: Fun Update


> Shadows over mexico??? what's this??
>
>
> ------Ronin------
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "The King of Chickens 2001"
> > <chickenno1@h...> wrote:
> > > What are the abilities (knowledges, skills, talents) that are not
> > >included in the core rules? I know Cybernetics (not the background
> > >one) is one of them.....
> >
> >
> > ability-type-source
> >
> > science-knowledge-secrets o shadowloo,
> > cybernetics-knowledge-phb,
> > bookie and publicist-both skills-both from phb,
> > manage-talent-phb,
> > linguistics-knowledge-perfect warrior
> > searching and instruction-both talents-both screen
> > demolitions, disguise, and repair-all skills-all screen
> > finance and law-both knowledges-both screen
> > meditation-skill-shadows over mexico
> > gambling-talent-shadows over mexico
> >
> > also i basically allow players to have an ability for anything they
> > can possibly think of or swipe from other white wolf games.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > p.s. the last 2 don't exist
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>

right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a part sets..

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of the
> woodwork.
>
> little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when you have
> all the books...
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the books, but
> why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can all
> share? :P
> >
> > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other people
> suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not likeit's a
> collector's item or anything.......
> >
> > WarlockFM.

YEAH!! TRIGUN is THE greatest manga series ^_^

----Ronin-----

--- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> TRIUGUN!
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "Dennis Bryant" <gvwinterdawn@h...> wrote:
> > I allways thought of Ryu as the clasic Japanese wandering Ronin,
seeking to
> > perfect oneself & helping those you meet on your travels. The old
clasic,
> > which was copyed in a lot of westerns as well, y'know, the old 'a
lone heor
> > comes to a town, he dosn't really want to get involved, but ends
up saving
> > the village, because that's the right thing to do. That's how Ryu
allways
> > came across to me, anyway.
> >
> > Darklight
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

At 06:15 AM 4/19/02 -0000, you wrote:

>"Honor" as a game system (as opposed to a broad concept) is defined
>by white wolf on page 55 of the main sourcebook.
>
>"Honor represents your characters MORALS both in and out of the ring."
>
>(IMO from here on)
>is someone going to tell me "MORALS" has nothing to do with good and
>bad?
>
>LOL
>
>in each of our private lives we all might have different ideas of
>what "honor" or "good" or "bad" means to us individually, but when
>playing a structured game with rules, the definition that counts is
>the games definition (barring the golden rule).
>
>above, the game defines honor as morals, which is good/evil.
>On the renown chart on page 56 it defines what specific acts are
>honorable and what are not, regardless of a characters (like akuma's)
>personal code or view.
>
>Honor is black and white as a game system.
>As a real-life concept its debatable because theres no "big book of
>life's rules" but in a game-world, we have the definition (above)
>from the game-book.
>
>M

This had really been an interesting discussion. I'd never really thought
about it before. I beleive Streetfighter might be the only White Wolf game
to ever take a solid moral stance.....

>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

---

MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: Click Here

Actually, I found out about streetfighter 2 years after they stopped printing, but I ordered from a shop but they never called me back.. (go figure)

Anyway, I'm hoping necro's "rules outline" gets finished and posted soon so I can play the game, the story/plot isn't too important since, I've seen the movie, played the games (addicted to streetfighter III 3rd strike) read various stuff on the web...

Of course, nothing beats holding a copy of the original.

WarlockFM.

no one ever scrolls down! I love it!
"p.s. the last 2 don't exist"

--- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> Shadows over mexico??? what's this??
>
>
> ------Ronin------
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "The King of Chickens 2001"
> > <chickenno1@h...> wrote:
> > > What are the abilities (knowledges, skills, talents) that are
not
> > >included in the core rules? I know Cybernetics (not the
background
> > >one) is one of them.....
> >
> >
> > ability-type-source
> >
> > science-knowledge-secrets o shadowloo,
> > cybernetics-knowledge-phb,
> > bookie and publicist-both skills-both from phb,
> > manage-talent-phb,
> > linguistics-knowledge-perfect warrior
> > searching and instruction-both talents-both screen
> > demolitions, disguise, and repair-all skills-all screen
> > finance and law-both knowledges-both screen
> > meditation-skill-shadows over mexico
> > gambling-talent-shadows over mexico
> >
> > also i basically allow players to have an ability for anything
they
> > can possibly think of or swipe from other white wolf games.
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > p.s. the last 2 don't exist

yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away at my own
loss.

this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone bitched
and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away original,
and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.

because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight of not
having the books despite my having them.

what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this my thanks?

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a part
sets..
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of the
> > woodwork.
> >
> > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when you
have
> > all the books...
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the books,
but
> > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can all
> > share? :P
> > >
> > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other
people
> > suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not likeit's a
> > collector's item or anything.......
> > >
> > > WarlockFM.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:

> And for the forcing part of honor: Samurai literature is full of
> morally wrong acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a
> samurai demanded of him. The bushido is a form of code of
> conduct that demands loyalyty and obedience to ones lord above
> all else and defines honor by that terms.
>
> Roland

1. how the bushido defines honor, does not define the true meaning.
because sum1 wrote down a rule for samurai that says its honorable to
cut peasants heads off if they look you in the eye does not mean it
actually IS honorable. it just means that rule in bushido says it
is, and samurai believed it.

2. feeling like you are compelled to listen to a certain person and
do what they say no matter what is simply loyalty and duty. YES
obeying your master in and of iteself is honorable as a theory. but
if you look at the individual act, the thing you said was morally
wrong, you cannot describe it as "honorable". give me a specific
example of a morally wrong act and show me how THAT ACT (not just the
fact that you obeyed master) is HONORABLE. it aint, every time.

3. just because the samurai said something was honorable doesnt mean
it was true. those were brutal times. what about nazi's? the simple
soldier only obeyed his master (hitler) like a good little samurai.
does that mean that every single atrocity he commited can be defined
as an "honorable" act? NO. when you obey your master you are doing
something honorable, when you comit a moral attrocity you are doing
something dishonorable. it cancels out, and outweighs the simple act
of obedience and makes you OVER-ALL a dishonorable person. also
besides hitler charles manson is a good example. he was the master
and he gave orders to his cult. can you define all the acts they
commited as "Honorable" because they were following orders of their
master? blatantly no.

4. when you have conflicting morals like "hmm, disobeying master is
wrong, yet obeying him and killing these innocents is also wrong" you
have to weigh in your mind which is the greater wrong. or whether or
not its wrong at all to disobey a sick or demented order. just
because the samurai had blatant disregard for human life, and were
more concerned with their primary directive to obey since they were
servants of their lord, does not mean that its really an honorable
thing to do. it simply means its your duty as a servant. its your
duty, to go do something dishonorable.

5. I would like to address this one single sentence fragment of yours
by itself for a moment:
"acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a samurai demanded"
Why do you think "honor" equals something your lord demands?
see the conflicting morals(4) thing and the hitler analogy (3) above.

Matt

What manga? I mean the anime. ^_^

--- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> YEAH!! TRIGUN is THE greatest manga series ^_^
>
> ----Ronin-----
>
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > TRIUGUN!
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "Dennis Bryant" <gvwinterdawn@h...> wrote:
> > > I allways thought of Ryu as the clasic Japanese wandering Ronin,
> seeking to
> > > perfect oneself & helping those you meet on your travels. The old
> clasic,
> > > which was copyed in a lot of westerns as well, y'know, the old 'a
> lone heor
> > > comes to a town, he dosn't really want to get involved, but ends
> up saving
> > > the village, because that's the right thing to do. That's how Ryu
> allways
> > > came across to me, anyway.
> > >
> > > Darklight
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

that was my real life response. an "in-game" response would be like
this:

"ok, playerx, you are choosing to follow your lords order to barge
into the workers house and kill him and his entire family because he
accidentaly looked at your master while they belong to different
castes.... congratulations, you get +1 honor for following an order
and "- a lot" for the grissly senseless murder. your on your way to
becoming a really dishonorable AND bad person by following these
orders..."

and before I hear anything about "thas how the caste system was",
just because thats how it is doesnt make it right. laws are not
always right or just or honorable just because they are "the law".

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > And for the forcing part of honor: Samurai literature is full of
> > morally wrong acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a
> > samurai demanded of him. The bushido is a form of code of
> > conduct that demands loyalyty and obedience to ones lord above
> > all else and defines honor by that terms.
> >
> > Roland
> <snipped>

I invoke Godwin's Law (do a web search).

Ugh.

*Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me outright
evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
rule every religion has. Evil can many times just be
a matter of perspective. Um to take an example from
star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions to
billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the families
of those people what he did was an evil act.



--- necro6hit <ringthief@...> wrote:

> i think thats wrong.
> honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or
> anyone, who does
> anything, COULD be honorable)
> it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of
> behavior.
>
> morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.
>
> and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
> I dont believe that either.
> someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their
> honor, or they can
> demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt
> mean it is an
> honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in
> the name of
> honor.
>
> I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can
> live a life of
> EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think an
> explanation exists
> for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im
> wrong.
>
> keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding
> other ppl honor
> you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or
> lawfull, and its not
> only if you fight fair or not, and its definately
> not whatever
> anyone person wants it to be at any given
> time(ruling out things
> being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS
> code). having some
> code of conduct in general doesnt make you
> honorable.
>
> I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that
> might change my
> mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil
> and honorable..
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao"
> <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing to
> do with good
> > or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of
> behavior.
> > One CAN be evil and honorable at the same time!
> > That is, because evil has a point of view. Evil
> can be neccessary
> > or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One can
> be true to one's
> > code of conduct and still be viewed as acting
> morally wrong.
> > Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
> >
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

I think I forgot to mention something when defining moral's and ethics.
Ethics CAN pertain to that which is moral, or literally 'The Good', but it
can also refer to accepted standards of a profession or background. In
short, Moral is always 'Good' but ethics do not necessarily have to be.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Big post, just warning =) And as usual, this is just my viewpoint, not the
end all authority.

>i think thats wrong.
>honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or anyone, who does
>anything, COULD be honorable)
>it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of behavior.
>
>morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.
>

You are both right and wrong from what I can tell about true Honor. You lump
together two similar topics that are in fact distinct: morals and ethics.
Moral (Litterally 'The Good') directly measures the sum goodness of a
persons actions in life. Ethics pretains to how a person acts in relation to
a particular institution. I'm sure everyone will note that doctors, lawyers,
and warriors all have very different ethical codes.


And there-in lies the catch: while morals are constant and never fluctuate,
ethics do depending on environment. And Honor is dependent on ethics instead
of morals. Why is that the case? Because honor is not something that can be
gauged by the bearer (not directly), because it is something bestowed upon
him/her by 'the viewer'. Hypothetically someone living in the middle of the
antarctic with no one around would have ZERO honor, because no one would
look at him and denote him as being honorable.... he might be %100 good.
Honor is how others precive you. And as such, they are the ones that make
the distinction as to how much honor you have.

Now in your case, you would say that someone that does not follow your
ethical code has no honor: and in your world that is absolutly correct. You
give him Zero honor. But someone using a different ethical code may give him
tons of honor and be equally correct! It is relative. There could be honor
among a group of merc's, and the head merc (a horrendously imorall guy)
could have honor up the wazoo amongst the others.

In the sense that white wolf uses the game, honor is more a judge of
Morality than Ethics. In this case matt, you could not be more correct.
Akuma (regardless of what he believe and follows) would have Zero honor,
because of how OTHERS (the general populance) sees his imorality.

For anyone looking into this deeper here's webster's take on honor:

1 a : good name or public esteem : REPUTATION b : a showing of usually
merited respect : RECOGNITION <pay honor to our founder>
2 : PRIVILEGE
3 : a person of superior standing -- now used especially as a title for a
holder of high office <if Your Honor please>
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDIT <an honor to the
profession>
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction: as a : an exalted title or rank b
(1) : BADGE, DECORATION (2) : a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with
full military honors> c : an award in a contest or field of competition d
archaic : a gesture of deference : BOW e plural (1) : an academic
distinction conferred on a superior student (2) : a course of study for
superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course
7 : CHASTITY, PURITY <fought fiercely for her honor and her life -- Barton
Black>
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY b : one's word given as a
guarantee of performance
9 plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <did the
honors at the table>
10 a (1) : an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten especially of the trump suit in
bridge (2) : the scoring value of honors held in bridge -- usually used in
plural b : the privilege of playing first from the tee in golf
synonyms HONOR, HOMAGE, REVERENCE, DEFERENCE mean respect and esteem shown
to another. HONOR may apply to the recognition of one's right to great
respect or to any expression of such recognition <the nomination is an
honor>. HOMAGE adds the implication of accompanying praise <paying homage to
Shakespeare>. REVERENCE implies profound respect mingled with love,
devotion, or awe <great reverence for my father>. DEFERENCE implies a
yielding or submitting to another's judgment or preference out of respect or
reverence <showed no deference to their elders>. synonym see in addition
HONESTY

>and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
>I dont believe that either.
>someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their honor, or they can
>demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt mean it is an
>honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in the name of
>honor.
>
>I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can live a life of
>EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think an explanation exists
>for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im wrong.
>
>keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding other ppl honor
>you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or lawfull, and its not
>only if you fight fair or not, and its definately not whatever
>anyone person wants it to be at any given time(ruling out things
>being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS code). having some
>code of conduct in general doesnt make you honorable.
>
>I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that might change my
>mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil and honorable..
>
>Matt
>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

i just asked my bosses oppinion on this (i work @ a japanese company)
and he said that if a samurai was ordered to do something
dishonorable, he would probably just appologise and then kill himself
to avoid having to choose between the 2 dishonorable/bad acts.

so if he was just blindly obedient he would not be honorable.

he also added, though im not sure if he was applying this in general
or to the samurai, "its every subordinates duty to question his
orders when they feel they are dishonorable or wrong."

hope this gives some insight.
Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > And for the forcing part of honor: Samurai literature is full of
> > morally wrong acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a
> > samurai demanded of him. The bushido is a form of code of
> > conduct that demands loyalyty and obedience to ones lord above
> > all else and defines honor by that terms.
> >
> > Roland
>

"Ruuuuuv and peace!"

--- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> YEAH!! TRIGUN is THE greatest manga series ^_^
>
> ----Ronin-----
>

I've been wandering around here for a while, and in my humble
opinion, YOU are the one who stood out the most. Not because ou reply
to most of what people say, but because you seem to put out a lot of
effort in helping them. The contest you started, is a marvelous way
to help out those people whi don't have the books like me. High Five
to you. Keep on like that. It'll come back to you in some form or
another some day. :o)

Gwenhwyvar Valia Lillith Baker

"Is the Dark Side stronger?. No. Faster, easyer, more seductive yes."
- Luke Sjywalker and Master Yoda, The Empire strikes back

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away at my
own
> loss.
>
> this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone
bitched
> and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away
original,
> and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.
>
> because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight of not
> having the books despite my having them.
>
> what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this my
thanks?
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a part
> sets..
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of the
> > > woodwork.
> > >
> > > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when you
> have
> > > all the books...
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the books,
> but
> > > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can
all
> > > share? :P
> > > >
> > > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other
> people
> > > suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not likeit's
a
> > > collector's item or anything.......
> > > >
> > > > WarlockFM.

thanks, I was quasi-insulted by that other guys response, though im
not entirely sure he meant it the way i took it, but you cheer me up.

M

--- In streetfighter@y..., "thy_sorrow" <shallow_one@h...> wrote:
> I've been wandering around here for a while, and in my humble
> opinion, YOU are the one who stood out the most. Not because ou
reply
> to most of what people say, but because you seem to put out a lot
of
> effort in helping them. The contest you started, is a marvelous way
> to help out those people whi don't have the books like me. High
Five
> to you. Keep on like that. It'll come back to you in some form or
> another some day. :o)
>
> Gwenhwyvar Valia Lillith Baker
>
> "Is the Dark Side stronger?. No. Faster, easyer, more seductive
yes."
> - Luke Sjywalker and Master Yoda, The Empire strikes back
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > yes, i bought them and i am systematically giving them away at my
> own
> > loss.
> >
> > this was the alternative to giving away copies since everyone
> bitched
> > and moaned about it, I am wasting my own money to give away
> original,
> > and I had to pay way more than cover price for some of those.
> >
> > because unlike the bitchers/whiners, I understand the plight of
not
> > having the books despite my having them.
> >
> > what exactly is your statement down there implying? is this my
> thanks?
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > right, according to that picture of yours, you have 3 and a
part
> > sets..
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > i was all for it, but the bitchers and whiners came out of
the
> > > > woodwork.
> > > >
> > > > little biased? its easy to defend copyright principles when
you
> > have
> > > > all the books...
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Ok, I haven't read the previous posts on scanning the
books,
> > but
> > > > why not scan them anyway and post it on some anonymous
> > > > site/channel/room/group then tell everyone about it so we can
> all
> > > > share? :P
> > > > >
> > > > > I mean, why do you sadistic people continue to make other
> > people
> > > > suffer because these books are so rare now? It's not
likeit's
> a
> > > > collector's item or anything.......
> > > > >
> > > > > WarlockFM.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Andy Johnston" <dlatrex@h...> wrote:

> I think I forgot to mention something when defining moral's and
>ethics.
> Ethics CAN pertain to that which is moral, or literally 'The Good',
>but it
> can also refer to accepted standards of a profession or background.

very true. luckily for us the book defines the standards for the
street fighting proffesion too.

>In
> short, Moral is always 'Good' but ethics do not necessarily have to
>be.
>

in general yes, but in SF:stg, the ethics are defined.

> You are both right and wrong from what I can tell about true Honor.
>You lump
> together two similar topics that are in fact distinct: morals and
>ethics.

sorry but i cant take the credit for that. the definition of Honor
lumps them together, not I.

see my file on it in the files section, in the "Matt's" folder..

Matt

LOL.. ^_^


You got me there O_o



-----Ronin-----

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> no one ever scrolls down! I love it!
> "p.s. the last 2 don't exist"
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> > Shadows over mexico??? what's this??
> >
> >
> > ------Ronin------
> >
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "The King of Chickens 2001"
> > > <chickenno1@h...> wrote:
> > > > What are the abilities (knowledges, skills, talents) that are
> not
> > > >included in the core rules? I know Cybernetics (not the
> background
> > > >one) is one of them.....
> > >
> > >
> > > ability-type-source
> > >
> > > science-knowledge-secrets o shadowloo,
> > > cybernetics-knowledge-phb,
> > > bookie and publicist-both skills-both from phb,
> > > manage-talent-phb,
> > > linguistics-knowledge-perfect warrior
> > > searching and instruction-both talents-both screen
> > > demolitions, disguise, and repair-all skills-all screen
> > > finance and law-both knowledges-both screen
> > > meditation-skill-shadows over mexico
> > > gambling-talent-shadows over mexico
> > >
> > > also i basically allow players to have an ability for anything
> they
> > > can possibly think of or swipe from other white wolf games.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > p.s. the last 2 don't exist

durgaIX I offered you a book for free in this post (below)
I need your address so i can have the seller ship directly to you if
you still want it.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> bidding is closed yes, but bidding is closed to ME.
> give me your address and I'll have it shipped to you,
> you can pay for it when-ever if-ever.
>
> Matt
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., DurgaIX@a... wrote:
> > says bidding is closed and im seriously broke. my kids daycare is
> like 288 a
> > month. that shalf of what i make a month plus i have other
> bills......sigh.
> > thats why i was backing the whole "scan the books" idea awhile
> back. BUT LETS
> > PLEASE NOT GET INTO ALL THAT AGAIN!
> > Thanks anyway bro.

ok, now that this has gone religious i have a few things to say.
specificly since it was brought up how certain ppl might classify a
pagan to be "evil".

there are a lot of ppl out there who call themselves christians then
act like assholes and give us all a bad name. everyone thinks of
christians as these finger pointing inquisitionists.

I study what the bible actually says as opposed to just listening to
the parts i want to hear like some, and if anyone calls themselves a
christian and judges you for your beliefs, or does not love you on
some level, they are practicing the religion all wrong.

please dont think of christianity in terms of how these ppl act as
they are doing it wrong.

every non-christian ive ever talked to who was arguing against my
religion has used the rationale of:"how can he claim to be a god of
love when all these deaths and atrocities are commited in his name"
the answer of coarse, is the ppl that did those things, were not
practicing his religion correctly.

A christian who actually practices the religion correctly, will not
hate you, persecute you, or judge you based on ANY of your beliefs.
These are the ones you should define the religion by, because these
are the ones who are doing it right.

(steps off soapbox)
Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> *Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me outright
> evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
> do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
> rule every religion has. Evil can many times just be
> a matter of perspective. Um to take an example from
> star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
> destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions to
> billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the families
> of those people what he did was an evil act.

Glad to have done so. A little smile is often enough to make my
day :o)
Just stick with the Light side of the force :OÞ

On a side note... I HATE amazon... ok maybe not, but I was unlucky
enough to miss a players handbook, a secrets of shadowloo and a
perfect warrior, by a day... *bangs her head against a wall*
:oÞ
Is there a way other then here we could talk some time?

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> thanks, I was quasi-insulted by that other guys response, though im
> not entirely sure he meant it the way i took it, but you cheer me
up.
>
> M

Big post, just warning =) And as usual, this is just my viewpoint, not the
end all authority.

>i think thats wrong.
>honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or anyone, who does
>anything, COULD be honorable)
>it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of behavior.
>
>morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.
>

You are both right and wrong from what I can tell about true Honor. You lump
together two similar topics that are in fact distinct: morals and ethics.
Moral (Litterally 'The Good') directly measures the sum goodness of a
persons actions in life. Ethics pretains to how a person acts in relation to
a particular institution. I'm sure everyone will note that doctors, lawyers,
and warriors all have very different ethical codes.


And there-in lies the catch: while morals are constant and never fluctuate,
ethics do depending on environment. And Honor is dependent on ethics instead
of morals. Why is that the case? Because honor is not something that can be
gauged by the bearer (not directly), because it is something bestowed upon
him/her by 'the viewer'. Hypothetically someone living in the middle of the
antarctic with no one around would have ZERO honor, because no one would
look at him and denote him as being honorable.... he might be %100 good.
Honor is how others precive you. And as such, they are the ones that make
the distinction as to how much honor you have.

Now in your case, you would say that someone that does not follow your
ethical code has no honor: and in your world that is absolutly correct. You
give him Zero honor. But someone using a different ethical code may give him
tons of honor and be equally correct! It is relative. There could be honor
among a group of merc's, and the head merc (a horrendously imorall guy)
could have honor up the wazoo amongst the others.

In the sense that white wolf uses the game, honor is more a judge of
Morality than Ethics. In this case matt, you could not be more correct.
Akuma (regardless of what he believe and follows) would have Zero honor,
because of how OTHERS (the general populance) sees his imorality.

For anyone looking into this deeper here's webster's take on honor:

1 a : good name or public esteem : REPUTATION b : a showing of usually
merited respect : RECOGNITION <pay honor to our founder>
2 : PRIVILEGE
3 : a person of superior standing -- now used especially as a title for a
holder of high office <if Your Honor please>
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDIT <an honor to the
profession>
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction: as a : an exalted title or rank b
(1) : BADGE, DECORATION (2) : a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with
full military honors> c : an award in a contest or field of competition d
archaic : a gesture of deference : BOW e plural (1) : an academic
distinction conferred on a superior student (2) : a course of study for
superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course
7 : CHASTITY, PURITY <fought fiercely for her honor and her life -- Barton
Black>
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY b : one's word given as a
guarantee of performance
9 plural : social courtesies or civilities extended by a host <did the
honors at the table>
10 a (1) : an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten especially of the trump suit in
bridge (2) : the scoring value of honors held in bridge -- usually used in
plural b : the privilege of playing first from the tee in golf
synonyms HONOR, HOMAGE, REVERENCE, DEFERENCE mean respect and esteem shown
to another. HONOR may apply to the recognition of one's right to great
respect or to any expression of such recognition <the nomination is an
honor>. HOMAGE adds the implication of accompanying praise <paying homage to
Shakespeare>. REVERENCE implies profound respect mingled with love,
devotion, or awe <great reverence for my father>. DEFERENCE implies a
yielding or submitting to another's judgment or preference out of respect or
reverence <showed no deference to their elders>. synonym see in addition
HONESTY

>and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
>I dont believe that either.
>someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their honor, or they can
>demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt mean it is an
>honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in the name of
>honor.
>
>I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can live a life of
>EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think an explanation exists
>for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im wrong.
>
>keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding other ppl honor
>you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or lawfull, and its not
>only if you fight fair or not, and its definately not whatever
>anyone person wants it to be at any given time(ruling out things
>being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS code). having some
>code of conduct in general doesnt make you honorable.
>
>I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that might change my
>mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil and honorable..
>
>Matt
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

one websters definition of "ethics" reads:

"ethics-The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific
moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy."

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Andy Johnston" <dlatrex@h...> wrote:
> together two similar topics that are in fact distinct: morals and
ethics.

> 1. how the bushido defines honor, does not define the true

meaning.

> because sum1 wrote down a rule for samurai that says its

honorable to

> cut peasants heads off if they look you in the eye does not

mean it

> actually IS honorable. it just means that rule in bushido says it
> is, and samurai believed it.

Sure it is, since honor is always a matter of definition. If everyone
around you believes it to be honorable, it will be.

> 2. feeling like you are compelled to listen to a certain person

and

> do what they say no matter what is simply loyalty and duty. YES
> obeying your master in and of iteself is honorable as a theory.

but

> if you look at the individual act, the thing you said was morally
> wrong, you cannot describe it as "honorable". give me a

specific

> example of a morally wrong act and show me how THAT ACT

(not just the

> fact that you obeyed master) is HONORABLE. it aint, every time.

How about killing an important enemy in single hand combat in
a war?
Everyone in your home sure would view you as a hero and since
didn't shoot him without warning, you acted honorably.
But since killing per sé is morally wrong in your country, you did
something bad at the same time.

> 3. just because the samurai said something was honorable
> doesnt mean it was true. those were brutal times. what about
> nazi's? the simple soldier only obeyed his master (hitler) like a
> good little samurai. does that mean that every single atrocity he
> commited can be defined as an "honorable" act? NO. when
> you obey your master you are doing something honorable,
> when you comit a moral attrocity you are doing something
> dishonorable. it cancels out, and outweighs the simple act
> of obedience and makes you OVER-ALL a dishonorable
> person. also besides hitler charles manson is a good
> example. he was the master and he gave orders to his cult.
> can you define all the acts they commited as "Honorable"
> because they were following orders of their master? blatantly
> no.

That is because you (and given the examples me too) don't
share the ethics of the people involved...
If a suicide terrorist kills a lot of people, his colleagues might
well view him a very honorable man, even if we do not!

> 4. when you have conflicting morals like "hmm, disobeying

master is

> wrong, yet obeying him and killing these innocents is also

wrong" you

> have to weigh in your mind which is the greater wrong. or

whether or

> not its wrong at all to disobey a sick or demented order. just
> because the samurai had blatant disregard for human life, and

were

> more concerned with their primary directive to obey since they

were

> servants of their lord, does not mean that its really an

honorable

> thing to do. it simply means its your duty as a servant. its your
> duty, to go do something dishonorable.

Her we are again: definition.
We might view it wrong and therefore dishonorable, for them it
was the right thing to do and therefore honorable.

> 5. I would like to address this one single sentence fragment of

yours

> by itself for a moment:
> "acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a samurai

demanded"

> Why do you think "honor" equals something your lord

demands?

> see the conflicting morals(4) thing and the hitler analogy (3)

above.

Not my lord but a samurai's lord - when loosing face is loosing
honor and vice versa.

> Matt

Roland

Sorry, my TYPO fauklt.. ^_^

I meant Anime..


There actually exists a mange comic series too though..

----ROnin----

--- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> What manga? I mean the anime. ^_^
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> > YEAH!! TRIGUN is THE greatest manga series ^_^
> >
> > ----Ronin-----
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "warlockfm" <warlockfm@y...> wrote:
> > > TRIUGUN!
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "Dennis Bryant" <gvwinterdawn@h...>
wrote:
> > > > I allways thought of Ryu as the clasic Japanese wandering Ronin,
> > seeking to
> > > > perfect oneself & helping those you meet on your travels. The old
> > clasic,
> > > > which was copyed in a lot of westerns as well, y'know, the old 'a
> > lone heor
> > > > comes to a town, he dosn't really want to get involved, but ends
> > up saving
> > > > the village, because that's the right thing to do. That's how Ryu
> > allways
> > > > came across to me, anyway.
> > > >
> > > > Darklight
> > > >
> > > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

please dont bring bigotry into this, that doesnt define good or evil
because some close minded asshole cant see past your religion.

your defined by your actions, and anyone who practices a variant of
the golden rule sounds pretty good to me.

if some schmuck says your evil it has nothing to do with what is
actually evil. all that means is thats what some stupid schmuck
thinks.

I only have a very deep understanding of the christian religion, but
unlike most christians, I realize I would be a hypocrite to think
your evil. who am i to judge.

close minded, holier than thou ppl do not define good and evil, they
only claim to.

blessed be,
Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> *Sigh* I'm a pagan. To many that makes me outright
> evil. My code of honor is simple "and it harms none
> do as ye will". Basically a variant of the golden
> rule every religion has. Evil can many times just be
> a matter of perspective. Um to take an example from
> star wars. Luke blew up the death star a planet
> destroying weapon. It do so he destroyed millions to
> billions of people. I'm pretty sure to the families
> of those people what he did was an evil act.
>
>
>
> --- necro6hit <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > i think thats wrong.
> > honor is not adherance to ANY code of behavior. (or
> > anyone, who does
> > anything, COULD be honorable)
> > it is by adhrance to a moral or ethical code of
> > behavior.
> >
> > morals and ethics are DIRECTLY related to good/evil.
> >
> > and as far as "Honor can even FORCE evil acts!"
> > I dont believe that either.
> > someone can do an evil act and SAY its for their
> > honor, or they can
> > demand others honor them by force, but that doesnt
> > mean it is an
> > honorable act because someone misguidedly does it in
> > the name of
> > honor.
> >
> > I ask anyone to pls explain to me how someone can
> > live a life of
> > EVIL, and HONOR at the same time. I dont think an
> > explanation exists
> > for that that isnt full of holes, but maybe im
> > wrong.
> >
> > keep in mind honor is not manners, its not demanding
> > other ppl honor
> > you (thats tyranny), its not being structured or
> > lawfull, and its not
> > only if you fight fair or not, and its definately
> > not whatever
> > anyone person wants it to be at any given
> > time(ruling out things
> > being OK because so-and-so THINKS its ok by HIS
> > code). having some
> > code of conduct in general doesnt make you
> > honorable.
> >
> > I would LOVE to hear a thought provoking answer that
> > might change my
> > mind, but like i said, i dont think you can be evil
> > and honorable..
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao"
> > <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > > And another thing: Honor has absolutly nothing to
> > do with good
> > > or evil. Honor is a definition for a code of
> > behavior.
> > > One CAN be evil and honorable at the same time!
> > > That is, because evil has a point of view. Evil
> > can be neccessary
> > > or just plain evil (morally speaking)... One can
> > be true to one's
> > > code of conduct and still be viewed as acting
> > morally wrong.
> > > Honor can even FORCE evil acts!
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/

heh, were you around last time i did that?
it was hilarious:)

--- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> LOL.. ^_^
>
>
> You got me there O_o
>
>
>
> -----Ronin-----
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > no one ever scrolls down! I love it!
> > "p.s. the last 2 don't exist"
> >
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "galin_ra" <randerssen@h...> wrote:
> > > Shadows over mexico??? what's this??
> > >
> > >
> > > ------Ronin------
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > > > --- In streetfighter@y..., "The King of Chickens 2001"
> > > > <chickenno1@h...> wrote:
> > > > > What are the abilities (knowledges, skills, talents) that
are
> > not
> > > > >included in the core rules? I know Cybernetics (not the
> > background
> > > > >one) is one of them.....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ability-type-source
> > > >
> > > > science-knowledge-secrets o shadowloo,
> > > > cybernetics-knowledge-phb,
> > > > bookie and publicist-both skills-both from phb,
> > > > manage-talent-phb,
> > > > linguistics-knowledge-perfect warrior
> > > > searching and instruction-both talents-both screen
> > > > demolitions, disguise, and repair-all skills-all screen
> > > > finance and law-both knowledges-both screen
> > > > meditation-skill-shadows over mexico
> > > > gambling-talent-shadows over mexico
> > > >
> > > > also i basically allow players to have an ability for
anything
> > they
> > > > can possibly think of or swipe from other white wolf games.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > p.s. the last 2 don't exist

--- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:

> How about killing an important enemy in single hand combat in
> a war?

alright, the object here is to see if you can be evil and honorable.

therefore you need a clear cut example of evil to begin with before
you can decide if it is also honorable.

you are choosing an example that is in a gray area to begin with
between good and evil which opens up an entirely new debate.

give a clear cut example to begin with of something TOTALLY and
BLATANTLY evil and show me how it is honorable.

if you use an example like that it just starts a sub thread and the
conversation turns from defining honor to defining evil.

> Everyone in your home sure would view you as a hero and since
> didn't shoot him without warning, you acted honorably.
> But since killing per sé is morally wrong in your country, you did
> something bad at the same time.

see above, in this highly specific example, killing might not be
considered morally wrong.

> That is because you (and given the examples me too) don't
> share the ethics of the people involved...
> If a suicide terrorist kills a lot of people, his colleagues might
> well view him a very honorable man, even if we do not!
>
> Her we are again: definition.
> We might view it wrong and therefore dishonorable, for them it
> was the right thing to do and therefore honorable.
>
> Not my lord but a samurai's lord - when loosing face is loosing
> honor and vice versa.
>
> If everyone
> around you believes it to be honorable, it will be.

all these responses of yours alerts me to the fact that not only do
we disagree on definition, we disagree on WHAT DETERMINES DEFINITION.

I think there is a universal truth of what is honorable and
dishonorable.

you seem to think that it all depends entirely on the perceptions of
ppl around.

untill we agree on what determines a definition we can never agree on
a definition.

But I will again pose the Nazi analogy.

By YOUR idea that honor is totally subjective according to individual
perceptions instead of a universal truth, you are basically saying
that Everything the nazi's did was "HONORABLE" because their peers
perceived it to be.

Do you:
A.) think the genocide, torture/death experiments, murder of the
nazi's is an HONORABLE act?
or
B.) admit that's a gaping hole in your theory?

Matt

p.s. again this is all my oppinion on the broad concept of honor.
the game mechanic "Honor" clearly states that unlike Glory, it exists
entirely seperate from an audiences perception.

do you argue that as a game mechanic also? or only "real-life" honor?

1) It depends on the game.
In L5R for example you would be right - following this order to the
letter would cost that character honor but would bring (or at least
not cost) him any glory, because here honor ist moral/ethics and
glory is reputation/face.
In Sengoku you even would gain honor, since you did follow your
lord's oders (and probably loose some, if there were other
witnesses). Same would happen in AD&D: Oriental Adventures.

2) The alternative to the situation you discribe would be one of
the following:
- The lord looses face and thereby his honor, so the character
would surely loose honor, too.
- The character dies (since it is his right to commit seppuku in
protest/to preserve his honor).
- The character would become an outlaw/ronin.

Not the best list to choose from, is it?

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> that was my real life response. an "in-game" response would
be like
> this:
>
> "ok, playerx, you are choosing to follow your lords order to
barge
> into the workers house and kill him and his entire family
because he
> accidentaly looked at your master while they belong to different
> castes.... congratulations, you get +1 honor for following an
order
> and "- a lot" for the grissly senseless murder. your on your way
to
> becoming a really dishonorable AND bad person by following
these
> orders..."
>
> and before I hear anything about "thas how the caste system
was",
> just because thats how it is doesnt make it right. laws are not
> always right or just or honorable just because they are "the
law".
>
> Matt
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <ringthief@c...> wrote:
> > --- In streetfighter@y..., "chuangbao" <Greywolf@t...> wrote:
> > > And for the forcing part of honor: Samurai literature is full of
> > > morally wrong acts that a lord (and therefore the honor) of a
> > > samurai demanded of him. The bushido is a form of code
of
> > > conduct that demands loyalyty and obedience to ones lord
above
> > > all else and defines honor by that terms.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > <snipped>