You don't need a credit card to shop ebay; it's an
exchange forum - the medium of exchange varies by
seller. Your friends "borrow and never returned" your
books? I guess stealing isn't all it's cracked up to
be.

> Seriously man, I no longer care. I've bought two of
> these books, STRPG and
> the Player's. I don't have a credit card so I could
> never get them off ebay
> even if I wanted to. But it doesn't bother me if
> people think I'm a thief
> for getting these books off the net. Currently I'm
> playing SF with a
> photocopy of the Player's guide and my memory. The
> books I actually
> purchased are long gone. Borrowed and never
> returned. So I am definitely
> not going to get choked up when some holier than
> thou kid gets up on his
> high horse to look down on me.
> --
> William Adams
> woa@...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
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or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Steve,
first off, the demonic attorney reference was hilarious.

secondly, I can see this hits you close to home since you put your
creative energies into software and rpgs and i guess its easier to
put yourself in their shoes.

like how youd feel if someone copied YOUR material.

you got me thinking.

So I guess it really is wrong huh, whether I copy 1 page or 100 pages
it's not the amount of material but the PRINCIPLE.

maybe reproducing someones creation without their permission is a bad
thing huh?

hmmm.
-Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "skarsten@o..." <skarsten@o...> wrote:
> In addition, since I am a software developer and unpublished
writer/game developer, *and* since the same excuse you're using to
justify this project is the one most warez monkeys and crackers like
to use to validate their own illegal doings, I am *so* not keen on
such a thing happening; it hits me too close to home


> Do I feel strongly enough to tap two black and play a Demonic
Attorney?

good points fred.

I will not talk about myself copying the books here anymore.

It HAS started a discussion on intellectual property rights though
and I might shoot a few msgs back and forth about that, but i am done
talking about copying the books.

it's looking more and more like i wont even do it now anyway.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., Fred Chagnon <seagull@a...> wrote:
> My turn.
>
> I've made it known that I'm against the copying of the books, but
being
> the non-confrontational person that I am, I've just basically made
> doubly sure that my name doesn't appear in any oif the threads
relating
> to the topic (unless it's in a discouragin email). I have not (yet)
done
> anything to force members to take this communication away from the
list.
> However, as one of the admins of the list it is my responsibility to
> ensure that things on the list stay legit. I was going to wait to
how
> this project went because the discussions have happened in the past
but
> died imminently. No use putting on my evil authoritative voice if I
> didn't need to. We're all friends here.
>
> But now that I've seen some scanned pictures, I'm a little
concerened. I
> think this pet project has gone further than what I'd like to allow
on
> the list.
>
> If you guys are really serious about this I'd like it taken offline
> please. I don't want this list and any innocent bystanders getting
> involved.
>
> To finsih on a light note though, I'd like to point out again that
The
> Perfect Warrior supplement book (my favorite) is currently going
for a
> mere $3.00 at eBay.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1676999606
>
> And as a side note, I've setup some search agents on eBay to email
me
> when it finds criteria I've setup that should find anything SFRPG
> related. I'll post these to the list as they come, and let you guys
> fight over them.
>
> There are so many better ways to get the books folks. Let's keep
our PDF
> making skils for creating our own official supplements.
>
> Anyway, I'm done. By the way Matt, thanks for being honest and
asking.
>
> > let's just put it this way...
> >
> > I, and one or two other members of this list, have spoken to the
author of Street Fighter in the past (both on this topic and others;
I interviewed him for my site two or three years ago), and could
easily do so again if the mood strikes us. White Wolf has already
made it known that they would be rather unhappy if such a project was
undertaken, so the fact that you're asking this question in the first
place tells me that you know what you're doing is wrong.
> >
> > In addition, since I am a software developer and unpublished
writer/game developer, *and* since the same excuse you're using to
justify this project is the one most warez monkeys and crackers like
to use to validate their own illegal doings, I am *so* not keen on
such a thing happening; it hits me too close to home. I suppose it
would be different if Capcom weren't still milking the Street Fighter
franchise. But perhaps not.
> >
> > I wouldn't even *have* to "go out of my way". Two seconds and
Mr. Weick's got an E-mail telling him where to look for illegally
distributed copies of his company's intellectual property, which is
still very much in print (WORLD OF DARKNESS: COMBAT)
> >
> > Do I feel strongly enough to tap two black and play a Demonic
Attorney?
> >
> > Good question. And it's a subject I don't feel like thinking
about. I'd have to weigh the imperative to do what I feel is right
against the guilt I'd feel about bringing fire and brimstone down on
some poor schlub I barely even know, whose intentions probably aren't
even very bad. Not to mention that if such activity were linked to
the operation of this mailing list, it could get the Admins in
trouble, and as Mike has stated, he (we) have been doing this for
four years and we're not about to stop now.
> >
> > So, I'm going to do what I usually do in such a situation. I'm
going to forget about the whole thing and go daydream about a really
hot coworker.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ..that stays HERE, you guys.
> >
> > ;)
> >
> > Original Message:
> > -----------------
> > From: necro6hit throwrocks@b...
> > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 19:31:12 +0000
> > To: streetfighter@y...
> > Subject: [streetfighter] how serious are you "anti-copy" ppl?
> >
> >
> > serious like you just dont like it?
> > or
> > serious like youd go out of your way to try to bust me?
> >
> > it just occured to me that this probably falls under "things i
need
> > to know" so i thought i'd ask.
> >
> > and for gods sake if im nice enough to ask your feelings on it
please
> > dont just lie and say youd bust me so I wont do it, because I
> > probably would anyway. I'd just be more carefull about it.
> >
> > matt
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> > http://mail2web.com/ .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> --
> ___________________________________________________
> Fred Chagnon "Only in RPGs does fighting
> seagull@a... make you a better person."
> seagull@n... - Peter Olafson

by the way steve,
could you share Mr. Weick's e mail address w/ me?

your post reminded me i always wanted it.

I always wanted to know exactly what shadows over mexico was gonna be
about and various rules clarifications etc. that haven't been asked
yet in any current interviews.

-Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "skarsten@o..." <skarsten@o...> wrote:
> I wouldn't even *have* to "go out of my way". Two seconds and Mr.
Weick's got an E-mail telling him where to look for illegally
distributed copies of his company's intellectual property, which is
still very much in print (WORLD OF DARKNESS: COMBAT)

--- In streetfighter@y..., "St. Vincent" <daehir@y...> wrote:

> You don't need a credit card to shop ebay

Actually, they now require a valid credit-card number to register.
Only to verify identity. And probably sell your shopping habit
information to anyone that asks.

> Your friends "borrow and never returned" your
> books? I guess stealing isn't all it's cracked up to
> be.

Woah! Not really. 'Stealing' is what happens when you take
something belonging to someone else. 'Scavenging' is what you do
when you recycle someone else's trash.

'Stealing' is downloading and playing Max Payne. 'Scavenging' is
downloading and playing The Bard's Tale.

'Stealing' is sharing ADnD v3 on Morpheus. 'Scavenging' is sharing
Street Fighter on Morpheus.

Scavenging isn't exactly glamorous, but its not Stealing. I mean,
the extension of this is that once you've declared something as
yours, its yours forever... regardless of your feelings towards it.
That means no generic drugs, no republished 'lost' works, and no
easily accessible Street Fighter. This is especially relevant for
the supplemental material, since they're already scarce.

When dealing with material goods, anything trash that hits the
pavement ceases to belong to its previous owner. I suppose this
isn't trash so much as a musty box in the basement, but why hold on
to it? I suppose thats my main source of consternation: why hold
onto it? Whats the deal?

Those of you suffering from an acute case of morality should
REJOICE! I managed to find a single store that carries every SF book
other than Main Book (which I have) and Contenders (which I don't).

With shipping, I got the Player's Guide, The Perfect Warrior, the
Screen, and Secrets of Shadoloo for $54.80 (US).

It DOES feel nice to not scavenge, I'll say that. Its still not
stealing, though. Harumph.

:)

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/my-zshop/S1OA9RMJBLGG9G/002-
4074455-0924828

Search for 'Street Fighter'; I don't know how much more he's got in
stock.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

----- Original Message -----

From: necro6hit

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 7:41 AM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: New poll for streetfighter

i like your rules pittman, i was just using you as an example.
sorry if i offended ya:)
and i didnt mean the ones from ww i meant the ones you polled us for.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> "you think EVERYONE here goes by pittmans "official"
> rulings just cuz there is an "official" label affixed to it?"
>
> Well, no, but I did include official rulings from WW, and stated
clearly that the mailing list rules were from that source. I never
tried to make my own rules "official", for the record.
>
> Scott
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: necro6hit
>   To: streetfighter@y...
>   Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 12:58 PM
>   Subject: [streetfighter] Re: New poll for streetfighter
>
>
>   i think standardizing rules, styles, etc. sux.
>   were never gonna ALL agree and the ppl who dont will just use
there
>   way. its not like they will be forced to use the "standard" way
just
>   cuz its standard.  its just a label to slap on it but it wont
change
>   anything.  you think EVERYONE here goes by pittmans "official"
>   rulings just cuz there is an "official" label affixed to it?
>   a "standardized" label wont change anything either.
>
>   ppl will play how they want.
>
>   if you just want ppls oppinions to go into your style thats ok,
but
>   its still just your style however you come up with it, and not
any
>   better, more official, etc. than any other.
>
>   Matt
>
>   --- In streetfighter@y..., streetfighter@y... wrote:
>   >
>   > Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
>   > streetfighter group:
>   >
>   > Should we begin work on standardizing
>   > the additional fan-created styles, or
>   > is it too much hassle?
>   >
>   >   o Standardize the styles so that the more anal GMs and
Players
>   can use them, knowing they've been approved by a panel of experts
>   >   o Too much hassle.  Playtest at your own risk!
>   >
>   >
>   > To vote, please visit the following web page:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/streetfighter/polls
>   >
>   > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
>   > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo!
Groups
>   > web site listed above.
>   >
>   > Thanks!
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>       
>       
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

> > yeah but these are just "backup copies"
> > lol
>
> Seriously man, I no longer care. I've bought two of these books, STRPG

and

> the Player's. I don't have a credit card so I could never get them off

ebay

> even if I wanted to. But it doesn't bother me if people think I'm a thief
> for getting these books off the net. Currently I'm playing SF with a
> photocopy of the Player's guide and my memory. The books I actually
> purchased are long gone. Borrowed and never returned. So I am definitely
> not going to get choked up when some holier than thou kid gets up on his
> high horse to look down on me.

Ya know, I'm getting about sick of people calling me a "kid" whenever I make
a point. I didn't insult anyone. I didn't call anyone a thief. I didn't
look down on anyone. And I damn sure don't remember getting "holier than
thou". What I did do was point out that, if ya want the books, you can find
them. Newsflash, bunky, you ain't the only guy without a credit card...I
don't either...yet, I've been buying off of eBay for two years.

I chimed in with my two cents on the debate...then I pointed out how and
where I rounded up the books. When my name pops up on the e-mail, read the
words as written, and don't try to make out the ones in between each
line...because they're not there. I say what I mean...unless, you know, I
make a typo or fudge the use of a word. I'm not going to go all
self-righteous on people over this, because I've done my fair share of
similar things, such as over-use of Napster and Morpheus.

The point was, if you want them bad enough, you can find them. Books go out
of print. It happens. And if you want to find those books, you might have
to look a little harder and maybe pay more than cover price. But if those
things are so inconvenient, maybe you don't want the books that
bad...*shrug*

Tommy

"I look at the world and I notice it's turning
While my guitar gently weeps
With every mistake we must surely be learning
Still my guitar gently weeps"
- George Harrison (1943-2001)

so far as i know rinaldo has suspended the tournament until further
notice, maybe forever.

maybe sum1 with time on their hands should volunteer to finish it for
him.

I think he's just stalling and trying to find a way to beat Rasputan:)

btw, If i ever get off my ass Im gonna make my system of making moves.
i had the idea a million years ago and its NOTHING like champs so plz
dont think I'm trying to rip off your intellectual property.

mine would look kinda like a mini character sheet for each move.

attributes would be speed damage and move.
youd have a certain number o dots to spread around.
then you buy advantages for the move.
then you spend freebies anywhere or take disadvantages to get more.

If I recall correctly champs didnt resemble this white wolf style
building im thinking about did it?

your stuff costs like hundreds or thousands of points doesnt it and
theres just a limit to how high you can go? Its not dots based like
mine is it?

later,
Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> Nah, you didn't. It's nice to know that people do look at the page!
I seriously need to update it with... er, something new, but I don't
know what... what ever happened to the Tourament and stuff anyway? Is
Rinaldo still around?
>
> Scott
>

"'Stealing' is downloading and playing Max Payne. 'Scavenging' is
downloading and playing The Bard's Tale."

Bad example.

Interplay's "The Ultimate RPG Archives", currently sitting on my desk,
contains the Bard's Tale Trilogy. I bought it like, a year ago.

I'd give it out, but there's two reasons I won't.

one is, I dunno how happy he'd be me spreading it all over. two, his addy's
on the White Wolf page somewhere, I think.

three, he's not as timely answering SF stuff like he used to be.

-----Original Message-----
From: necro6hit <throwrocks@...>
To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com <streetfighter@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 5:45 PM
Subject: [streetfighter] Re: how serious are you anti-copy ppl?


by the way steve,
could you share Mr. Weick's e mail address w/ me?

your post reminded me i always wanted it.

I always wanted to know exactly what shadows over mexico was gonna be
about and various rules clarifications etc. that haven't been asked
yet in any current interviews.

-Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "skarsten@o..." <skarsten@o...> wrote:
> I wouldn't even *have* to "go out of my way". Two seconds and Mr.
Weick's got an E-mail telling him where to look for illegally
distributed copies of his company's intellectual property, which is
still very much in print (WORLD OF DARKNESS: COMBAT)





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I have seen the light Steve K and Fred C.
to use other ppls copyrighted work without there permission is BAAAD
(shudder)

I will not reproduce any of the sf material now that I have been
shown the truth!

Since you steve, hint that you'll turn me(schlub) in;
and you fred, hint that you'll ban me if I talk about it,
the two of you must feel pretty strongly about this.

well since I know your both men of high principles i must address a
few things that i think you guys might be concerned with since you
guys obviously care about protecting the intellectual property of
capcom and/or white wolf. since it's all about the PRINCIPLE of the
matter i just KNOW that you two guys will deal with the offenders I'm
about to name with no bias, just as you threatened to deal with me:)

There are 2 i noticed, one is on the web and one is on this board so
i think the web guy falls under steves jurisdiction and the board guy
falls under freds. Ill do steves first.

ok there is this site i found that has a lot of scanned stuff from
the book. in the front of the book white wolf EXPRESSLY DENIES
permission to copy any of the book except for character sheets,
combat cards etc. (except for literary review) so i dont know WHO
this guy thinks he is!

maybe you can tell mr wieck steve, or report him to his provider.

the images can be found here:
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/sflogosm.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/enter.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/chunli.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sflogo.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/cammy.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pwcover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/scrncvr.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/concover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pgcover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pgcover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/shadco~1.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sfcover.jpg

and he even had the nerve to type up info from the book as well here:
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sfcomp.htm

since you mention empathising so strongly with game designer's (being
a self proclamed AMATEUR) i suspect you will probably show no mercy
to this evildoer. he even has the nerve to mention on his site that
its illegal to use the scanned images! talk about self incrimination!

In streetfighter@y..., Fred Chagnon <seagull@a...> wrote:

> My turn.

yes fred, now its YOUR turn.

first off id like to thank you, as moderator, for your speedy
responses. you responded only 18 minutes after steve mentioned that
copying the books could link the board administrators to the
activity. you mention you have remained silent on this until now but
obviously it doesnt take much to get you to say whatever someone
wants, just gotta know the right buttons to push. thats dedication.

it has come to my attention that copyrighted work has been reprinted
without permission right here ON THIS VERY BOARD!

yesiree-bob, the culprit who would endanger the owner and mods of
this board by commiting evil illegal acts here is named Mike Morgado
(sorry M:))!
He posts in messages number 3665 through 3667.

and to think this guy is reproducing huge chunks of a published work
without permission RIGHT HER UNDER OUR NOSES!

Doesnt he know that this is BAAAD?
STEVE says that if admins here are linked to this kind of activity it
could shut the board down! yikes! so you better get right to work on
this like steve says. who does that guy think he is posting that crap
here????
:)

hmm, maybe you can threaten this guy into silence like you did me.
since were all equal here.
and your ownly looking out for our best interests since you dont want
the owner or admins linked to any of this BAAAD stuff.

yeah and as soon as we use our torches and pitchforks to hunt down
these evil copyright infringers, we can hunt down all the hypocrites.

wait,

nevermind.....

--- In streetfighter@y..., "skarsten@o..." <skarsten@o...> wrote:
I wouldn't even *have* to "go out of my way". Two seconds and Mr.
Weick's got
an E-mail telling him where to look for illegally distributed copies
of his
company's intellectual property, which is still very much in print
(WORLD OF
DARKNESS: COMBAT)

Not to mention that if such
activity were linked to the operation of this mailing list, it could
get the
Admins in trouble
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In streetfighter@y..., Fred Chagnon <seagull@a...> wrote:
> My turn.

But now that I've seen some scanned pictures, I'm a little
concerened. I
think this pet project has gone further than what I'd like to allow on
the list.

If you guys are really serious about this I'd like it taken offline
please. I don't want this list and any innocent bystanders getting
involved.

in case any of you check the msgs very infrequently and only just now
got the one below:

those pictures are no longer there, they've been replaced with less
evil pictures that do not violate any existing copyrights owned by
white wolf or capcom.

I have destroyed all the scans i made of the book and turned to god.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <throwrocks@b...> wrote:
> here are some samples of how big ive been scanning
>
> http://www.tlcnet.com/~slappy/0000.jpg
> http://www.tlcnet.com/~slappy/0001.jpg
> http://www.tlcnet.com/~slappy/0002.jpg
> http://www.tlcnet.com/~slappy/0003.jpg
>
> do you guys think:
> bigger?
> smaller?
> ok?
>
> Matt

...that's it, dickhead. the gloves come off now.

My site is run with the full support of Mr. Weick and therefore White Wolf,
thank you very much. I e-mailed him not a week after it went live, which
was well over four years ago, in order to ask his permission. I didn't
think I would need to keep the E-mail around *this* long to validate myself.
Although I'm QUITE sure that even if I didn't, when I pointed him to the
site after the interview was published if he had a problem with it, the
material would have been gone by now. I'd explain further the concept of
the fine line between using scanned images to informatively dress up an
informational site about the game and reprinting the whole fucking work and
distributing it on the web, but the fact that I'm going off on this tangent
in the first place tells me it would be lost in the translation. You either
know what line doesn't get crossed, and why, or you don't. I know. You
don't.

In addition, the artwork was never in question - it is the PRINTED MATERIAL
that is in dispute here. IE, all the stuff that somebody had to think up,
playtest, balance, and so forth. All downloadables available in my file
section are those GIVEN PERMISSION TO PHOTOCOPY FOR PERSONAL USE. IE,
legal. You'll note that I do not quote the book AT ALL ANYWHERE on the
site; all written work is MINE AND MINE ALONE with the exception of reader
submissions unless i'm having a major attack of senility right now.
Speaking of printed material, I have been supporting that site, this list,
and the Street Fighter community for the past five years. So yes, I am
indeed a bad person. Sue me. Oh wait, you can't, I had the brains to check
with the right people first. So solly. No tickee, no laundry.

in addition, if you knew how to fucking read (language! -ed.) you'd realize
that since I was torn on the issue of "turning you in" I decided to abstain
from making a decision. In other words, I would not do so. But hey, if you
want to be a prick about it, be my guest. I can't exactly come to your
house and stop you, now can I? I'm sorry I used so many words to discuss
this topic. I'll give you the Reader's Digest version next time.

So much for not wasting any more breath on this topic. Thanks much for
obsessively linking to every goddamn picture on my site, by the way. 's
prolly more traffic than it's gotten in months.

<original "Your turn, Fred" comment snipped - that would be just too miffy>

I'm going back to sleep. Someone wake me when we go back to talking about
new style rules or something. In the meantime, this topic goes to the
bit-bucket. Have a happy, folks.

-----Original Message-----
From: necro6hit <throwrocks@...>
To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com <streetfighter@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:37 PM
Subject: [streetfighter] to steve and fred


I have seen the light Steve K and Fred C.
to use other ppls copyrighted work without there permission is BAAAD
(shudder)

I will not reproduce any of the sf material now that I have been
shown the truth!

Since you steve, hint that you'll turn me(schlub) in;
and you fred, hint that you'll ban me if I talk about it,
the two of you must feel pretty strongly about this.

well since I know your both men of high principles i must address a
few things that i think you guys might be concerned with since you
guys obviously care about protecting the intellectual property of
capcom and/or white wolf. since it's all about the PRINCIPLE of the
matter i just KNOW that you two guys will deal with the offenders I'm
about to name with no bias, just as you threatened to deal with me:)

There are 2 i noticed, one is on the web and one is on this board so
i think the web guy falls under steves jurisdiction and the board guy
falls under freds. Ill do steves first.

ok there is this site i found that has a lot of scanned stuff from
the book. in the front of the book white wolf EXPRESSLY DENIES
permission to copy any of the book except for character sheets,
combat cards etc. (except for literary review) so i dont know WHO
this guy thinks he is!

maybe you can tell mr wieck steve, or report him to his provider.

the images can be found here:
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/sflogosm.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/enter.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/chunli.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sflogo.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/cammy.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pwcover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/scrncvr.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/concover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pgcover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pgcover.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/shadco~1.jpg
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sfcover.jpg

and he even had the nerve to type up info from the book as well here:
http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sfcomp.htm

since you mention empathising so strongly with game designer's (being
a self proclamed AMATEUR) i suspect you will probably show no mercy
to this evildoer. he even has the nerve to mention on his site that
its illegal to use the scanned images! talk about self incrimination!

In streetfighter@y..., Fred Chagnon <seagull@a...> wrote:

> My turn.

yes fred, now its YOUR turn.

first off id like to thank you, as moderator, for your speedy
responses. you responded only 18 minutes after steve mentioned that
copying the books could link the board administrators to the
activity. you mention you have remained silent on this until now but
obviously it doesnt take much to get you to say whatever someone
wants, just gotta know the right buttons to push. thats dedication.

it has come to my attention that copyrighted work has been reprinted
without permission right here ON THIS VERY BOARD!

yesiree-bob, the culprit who would endanger the owner and mods of
this board by commiting evil illegal acts here is named Mike Morgado
(sorry M:))!
He posts in messages number 3665 through 3667.

and to think this guy is reproducing huge chunks of a published work
without permission RIGHT HER UNDER OUR NOSES!

Doesnt he know that this is BAAAD?
STEVE says that if admins here are linked to this kind of activity it
could shut the board down! yikes! so you better get right to work on
this like steve says. who does that guy think he is posting that crap
here????
:)

hmm, maybe you can threaten this guy into silence like you did me.
since were all equal here.
and your ownly looking out for our best interests since you dont want
the owner or admins linked to any of this BAAAD stuff.

yeah and as soon as we use our torches and pitchforks to hunt down
these evil copyright infringers, we can hunt down all the hypocrites.

wait,

nevermind.....

--- In streetfighter@y..., "skarsten@o..." <skarsten@o...> wrote:
I wouldn't even *have* to "go out of my way". Two seconds and Mr.
Weick's got
an E-mail telling him where to look for illegally distributed copies
of his
company's intellectual property, which is still very much in print
(WORLD OF
DARKNESS: COMBAT)

Not to mention that if such
activity were linked to the operation of this mailing list, it could
get the
Admins in trouble
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--- In streetfighter@y..., Fred Chagnon <seagull@a...> wrote:
> My turn.

But now that I've seen some scanned pictures, I'm a little
concerened. I
think this pet project has gone further than what I'd like to allow on
the list.

If you guys are really serious about this I'd like it taken offline
please. I don't want this list and any innocent bystanders getting
involved.





Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 6:44 PM

Subject: [streetfighter] Re: New poll for streetfighter

so far as i know rinaldo has suspended the tournament until further
notice, maybe forever.

maybe sum1 with time on their hands should volunteer to finish it for
him.

I think he's just stalling and trying to find a way to beat Rasputan:)

btw, If i ever get off my ass Im gonna make my system of making moves.
i had the idea a million years ago and its NOTHING like champs so plz
dont think I'm trying to rip off your intellectual property.

mine would look kinda like a mini character sheet for each move.

attributes would be speed damage and move.
youd have a certain number o dots to spread around.
then you buy advantages for the move.
then you spend freebies anywhere or take disadvantages to get more.

If I recall correctly champs didnt resemble this white wolf style
building im thinking about did it?

your stuff costs like hundreds or thousands of points doesnt it and
theres just a limit to how high you can go?  Its not dots based like
mine is it?

later,
Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> Nah, you didn't. It's nice to know that people do look at the page!
I seriously need to update it with... er, something new, but I don't
know what... what ever happened to the Tourament and stuff anyway? Is
Rinaldo still around?
>
> Scott
>



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

first off, look how riled up steve is:)

secondly, ooh, CURSING! glad to see your keeping this mature.

third while mr wieck doesnt have a problem with you, they had to get
the official art from capcom and you dont have capcoms permission to
use it. white wolf is bound by this to the point that they even said
THEY are no longer allowed to use capcoms liscense so i dont see how
he could give you permission to use something he doesnt own.

fourth, hmm, oh yeah, one of my obssessive links is not to a picture,
its to where you quoted the book. you said you were senile if you
did that:)

fifth is i know the difference, im just making a point. and the
front of the book DOES expressly forbid the reproduction of parts you
reproduced.

and at last, point number 6. (the point of the beast)

if we were having a calm discussion about property rights, why would
you erupt into a cursing madman if i used sarcasm to make a point
about hypocrasy? sarcasm and exxageration are very usefull tools to
illustrate points in a calm conversation while cursing and name
calling are not.

weve posted back and forth for many years now. all of us. so why
get this bent out of shape about sarcasm? must have hit pretty close
to the mark, but thats still no excuse. acting like your acting does
not make ppl take you seriously. If you want to get ppls attention,
make them listen to your points (me included), or make them take you
seriously, then the first thing you should do is take a big ole chill
pill(C)

Matt

p.s. I have permission from the manufacturers and bottlers of chill
pill (C) to use the name of their product.

--- In streetfighter@y..., Steve Karstensen <skarsten@o...> wrote:
>
> ...that's it, dickhead. the gloves come off now.
>
> My site is run with the full support of Mr. Weick and therefore
White Wolf,
> thank you very much. I e-mailed him not a week after it went live,
which
> was well over four years ago, in order to ask his permission. I
didn't
> think I would need to keep the E-mail around *this* long to
validate myself.
> Although I'm QUITE sure that even if I didn't, when I pointed him
to the
> site after the interview was published if he had a problem with it,
the
> material would have been gone by now. I'd explain further the
concept of
> the fine line between using scanned images to informatively dress
up an
> informational site about the game and reprinting the whole fucking
work and
> distributing it on the web, but the fact that I'm going off on this
tangent
> in the first place tells me it would be lost in the translation.
You either
> know what line doesn't get crossed, and why, or you don't. I
know. You
> don't.
>
> In addition, the artwork was never in question - it is the PRINTED
MATERIAL
> that is in dispute here. IE, all the stuff that somebody had to
think up,
> playtest, balance, and so forth. All downloadables available in my
file
> section are those GIVEN PERMISSION TO PHOTOCOPY FOR PERSONAL USE.
IE,
> legal. You'll note that I do not quote the book AT ALL ANYWHERE on
the
> site; all written work is MINE AND MINE ALONE with the exception of
reader
> submissions unless i'm having a major attack of senility right now.
> Speaking of printed material, I have been supporting that site,
this list,
> and the Street Fighter community for the past five years. So yes,
I am
> indeed a bad person. Sue me. Oh wait, you can't, I had the brains
to check
> with the right people first. So solly. No tickee, no laundry.
>
> in addition, if you knew how to fucking read (language! -ed.) you'd
realize
> that since I was torn on the issue of "turning you in" I decided to
abstain
> from making a decision. In other words, I would not do so. But
hey, if you
> want to be a prick about it, be my guest. I can't exactly come to
your
> house and stop you, now can I? I'm sorry I used so many words to
discuss
> this topic. I'll give you the Reader's Digest version next time.
>
> So much for not wasting any more breath on this topic. Thanks much
for
> obsessively linking to every goddamn picture on my site, by the
way. 's
> prolly more traffic than it's gotten in months.
>
> <original "Your turn, Fred" comment snipped - that would be just
too miffy>
>
> I'm going back to sleep. Someone wake me when we go back to
talking about
> new style rules or something. In the meantime, this topic goes to
the
> bit-bucket. Have a happy, folks.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: necro6hit <throwrocks@b...>
> To: streetfighter@y... <streetfighter@y...>
> Date: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:37 PM
> Subject: [streetfighter] to steve and fred
>
>
> I have seen the light Steve K and Fred C.
> to use other ppls copyrighted work without there permission is BAAAD
> (shudder)
>
> I will not reproduce any of the sf material now that I have been
> shown the truth!
>
> Since you steve, hint that you'll turn me(schlub) in;
> and you fred, hint that you'll ban me if I talk about it,
> the two of you must feel pretty strongly about this.
>
> well since I know your both men of high principles i must address a
> few things that i think you guys might be concerned with since you
> guys obviously care about protecting the intellectual property of
> capcom and/or white wolf. since it's all about the PRINCIPLE of the
> matter i just KNOW that you two guys will deal with the offenders
I'm
> about to name with no bias, just as you threatened to deal with me:)
>
> There are 2 i noticed, one is on the web and one is on this board so
> i think the web guy falls under steves jurisdiction and the board
guy
> falls under freds. Ill do steves first.
>
> ok there is this site i found that has a lot of scanned stuff from
> the book. in the front of the book white wolf EXPRESSLY DENIES
> permission to copy any of the book except for character sheets,
> combat cards etc. (except for literary review) so i dont know WHO
> this guy thinks he is!
>
> maybe you can tell mr wieck steve, or report him to his provider.
>
> the images can be found here:
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/sflogosm.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/enter.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/new/chunli.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sflogo.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/cammy.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pwcover.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/scrncvr.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/concover.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pgcover.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/pgcover.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/shadco~1.jpg
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sfcover.jpg
>
> and he even had the nerve to type up info from the book as well
here:
> http://skarsten.home.sprynet.com/sfcomp.htm
>
> since you mention empathising so strongly with game designer's
(being
> a self proclamed AMATEUR) i suspect you will probably show no mercy
> to this evildoer. he even has the nerve to mention on his site that
> its illegal to use the scanned images! talk about self
incrimination!
>
> In streetfighter@y..., Fred Chagnon <seagull@a...> wrote:
> > My turn.
>
> yes fred, now its YOUR turn.
>
> first off id like to thank you, as moderator, for your speedy
> responses. you responded only 18 minutes after steve mentioned that
> copying the books could link the board administrators to the
> activity. you mention you have remained silent on this until now but
> obviously it doesnt take much to get you to say whatever someone
> wants, just gotta know the right buttons to push. thats dedication.
>
> it has come to my attention that copyrighted work has been reprinted
> without permission right here ON THIS VERY BOARD!
>
> yesiree-bob, the culprit who would endanger the owner and mods of
> this board by commiting evil illegal acts here is named Mike Morgado
> (sorry M:))!
> He posts in messages number 3665 through 3667.
>
> and to think this guy is reproducing huge chunks of a published work
> without permission RIGHT HER UNDER OUR NOSES!
>
> Doesnt he know that this is BAAAD?
> STEVE says that if admins here are linked to this kind of activity
it
> could shut the board down! yikes! so you better get right to work on
> this like steve says. who does that guy think he is posting that
crap
> here????
> :)
>
> hmm, maybe you can threaten this guy into silence like you did me.
> since were all equal here.
> and your ownly looking out for our best interests since you dont
want
> the owner or admins linked to any of this BAAAD stuff.
>
> yeah and as soon as we use our torches and pitchforks to hunt down
> these evil copyright infringers, we can hunt down all the
hypocrites.
>
> wait,
>
> nevermind.....
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "skarsten@o..." <skarsten@o...> wrote:
> I wouldn't even *have* to "go out of my way". Two seconds and Mr.
> Weick's got
> an E-mail telling him where to look for illegally distributed copies
> of his
> company's intellectual property, which is still very much in print
> (WORLD OF
> DARKNESS: COMBAT)
>
> Not to mention that if such
> activity were linked to the operation of this mailing list, it could
> get the
> Admins in trouble
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --- In streetfighter@y..., Fred Chagnon <seagull@a...> wrote:
> > My turn.
>
> But now that I've seen some scanned pictures, I'm a little
> concerened. I
> think this pet project has gone further than what I'd like to allow
on
> the list.
>
> If you guys are really serious about this I'd like it taken offline
> please. I don't want this list and any innocent bystanders getting
> involved.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

my responses pittman, are below enclosed in dashes:)

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
your stuff costs like hundreds or thousands of points doesn't it ?
>
> Not thousands, lol. The numbers can go into the hundreds.

------------
yeah that would be a huge difference in our systems. mine would be
based on a 5 or 10 dot thing like most white wolf.
------------


> As stated before, it's not "dot based". But I give you two
warnings: Small numbers will be hard to construct into a workable
system, (I tried it), and you better be willing to put a LOT of time
into it (I took every afternoon for months working on CHAMPS, and
then compared the system to every maneuver of the hundreds of
official ones from the books).


------------
yeah i know! I actually started it once and it is a big pain.
ESPECIALLY with the small numbers.

but in my experience ppl like things to be kept relatively simple so
im gonna tough it out and try to make it work with 5 or 10 dots.
------------


> Of course, I can't stop you from making your own system, but I
created CHAMPS to have a "unified system" for those who create new
Maneuvers (too bad I didn't think of it before making all those up on
the Dogs of War page, lol). I'd hate to see conflicting systems for
this purpose ("that Maneuver adds up okay in CHAMPS but not legal in
Matt's, for example).


------------
i think everyone here knows how i feel about "unified systems"
lol
I wont go there again:)

no worries, im sure gaming troups will agree on which one to use
before playing so there wont be any "its legal in one but not the
other" problems.

besides, variety is good.
without variety in da gene pool we breed in weakness.
would you rather have one dollar or many?
why? (cuz more is betta')
now would you rather have 1 way to make moves or many?
------------


Still, no one is saying that my system would be better than yours
(but I do think mine is dang good, by golly).

------------
ooh, you went there.
lol
------------


> One idea - if you are really thinking of putting a lot of energy
into the idea, why not look closer at the CHAMPS system and see if
you can come up with some good suggestions and ways to make it
better. We might come up with "CHAMPS by Scott and Matt".
>



------------
yeah i had another idea.
instead of working to make money for yourself.
forard your paycheck to me to improve my bank account and make it
better.

lol

just kidding:)
but on a serious note, i will look at champs more closely and try to
give you suggestions if you want.

but im still going to run off and realize my vision as well.
------------

later
Matt

--------
my replies are in between the dashes like so
--------

--- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <throwrocks@b...> wrote:
> > In addition, the artwork was never in question - it is the
PRINTED
> MATERIAL
> > that is in dispute here.

--------
actually the issue is intellectual property rights.
this applies to the artwork capcom worked hard to produce as well as
the game white wolf worked hard to produce.

nice job trying to shift attention though. you could ba a magician.
(hey everyone look over here! no no, dont look what im ACTUALLY
doing, look over HERE)
--------

All downloadables available in my
> file
> > section are those GIVEN PERMISSION TO PHOTOCOPY FOR PERSONAL
USE.
> IE,
> > legal

--------
yes in your files section, but the OFFICIAL CAPCOM ART that white
wolf no longer has a liscense to use or AUTHORIZE your use, is
expressly forbidden.

notice not once did i link to your files section. only to your
stolen, illegal, hypocritical art that ppl should have to pay capcmo
for.
--------

> > Speaking of printed material, I have been supporting that site,
> this list,
> > and the Street Fighter community for the past five years. So
yes,
> I am
> > indeed a bad person. Sue me. Oh wait, you can't, I had the
brains
> to check
> > with the right people first

--------
yeah I noticed how you supported me when i wanted to bring the scarce
book to ppl who cant find it.
--------

Matt

| Since you steve, hint that you'll turn me(schlub) in;
| and you fred, hint that you'll ban me if I talk about it,
| the two of you must feel pretty strongly about this.

Not once did I threaten to ban you. I just asked that anyone wishing to
continue discussing reproducing copyright material take it off the list. (I
even said please).

| yes fred, now its YOUR turn.
| first off id like to thank you, as moderator, for your speedy
| responses. you responded only 18 minutes after steve mentioned that
| copying the books could link the board administrators to the
| activity. you mention you have remained silent on this until now but
| obviously it doesnt take much to get you to say whatever someone
| wants, just gotta know the right buttons to push. thats dedication.

I have no idea what you're mesage is here. If you'd like I can send you
emails with full headers proving that myself and Mike were discussing this
last night, and that I was not acting off the inspiration of anyone else.
Your message was asking our direct opinion was just an easy opening (which I
appreciated until now). We try to keep things friendly on this list. In the
three years I've been a memeber we've seen little to no conflict, so we were
discussing how best to manage this situation without stirring up any crap.

Guess it's a little late for that now.

| hmm, maybe you can threaten this guy into silence like you did me.

Again...not once did I threaten.

____________________________________________________
Fred Chagnon "Only in RPGs does fighting
seagull@... make you a better person."
seagull@... - Peter Olafson

this got me thinking. there's a web site (www.theunderdogs.net - kickass)
that hosts old video games for download. I've downloaded from there. But
you know what? If the publisher of the game requests it be removed, they
comply. same situation, different media. Some publishers even donate their
games and give the Underdogs permission to host.

I'll spell it slow for the challenged.

it'd be different if nobody had contacted White Wolf. Compliance by
silence, I suppose you could call it. At least you could feign ignorance,
albiet thinly.

but we did, and they. said. no. That's the bottom line. We've gotten it
from the president himself; no full reproductions of the printed works.
Period. They've no problem with fansites, artwork or no. They are unable
to reprint the works because the agreement with Capcom expired. We are
unable to reprint the works, for obvious reasons.

There it is, in black and white. And I do believe I have the messages that
J. Scott sent to Steve in the first place if you feel like challenging my
credibility again.

ta,
Steve

ok, now I'LL spell it slow for the challenged.

Capcom owns the rights to the pictures you have on your site.
white wolfs rights to them have expired.

if someone from white wolf cares or not has no bearing on the capcom
artwork they used a long time ago.

you are violating capcoms rights by reproducing their artwork.
the fact that you care when someone else violates rights by
reproducing some OTHER thing, makes you a big fat hypocrite.

you being a hypocrite is the only point i was trying to make so you
can quit arguing about whether its right or not to copy the books. I
stopped when you pointed out it was bad, but your not going to stop
when i point out something your doing is bad.
hypocrite.

and your bit of info on the videogames you download makes you an even
bigger hypocrite.

the sooner you look in the dictionary under "hypocrite" and realize
you are one, the sooner you can quit being mad at me and things can
get back to normal.

im telling the truth, I'd expect you to know the difference.

matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., Steve Karstensen <skarsten@o...> wrote:
> this got me thinking. there's a web site (www.theunderdogs.net -
kickass)
> that hosts old video games for download. I've downloaded from
there. But
> you know what? If the publisher of the game requests it be
removed, they
> comply. same situation, different media. Some publishers even
donate their
> games and give the Underdogs permission to host.
>
> I'll spell it slow for the challenged.
>
> it'd be different if nobody had contacted White Wolf. Compliance by
> silence, I suppose you could call it. At least you could feign
ignorance,
> albiet thinly.
>
> but we did, and they. said. no. That's the bottom line. We've
gotten it
> from the president himself; no full reproductions of the printed
works.
> Period. They've no problem with fansites, artwork or no. They are
unable
> to reprint the works because the agreement with Capcom expired. We
are
> unable to reprint the works, for obvious reasons.
>
> There it is, in black and white. And I do believe I have the
messages that
> J. Scott sent to Steve in the first place if you feel like
challenging my
> credibility again.
>
> ta,
> Steve

>first off, look how riled up steve is:)

yea, working sixty hours a week teaching computer science will do that to
you. having to deal with this discussion for the seven hundredth and
fifty-seventh time is just bonus.

>secondly, ooh, CURSING! glad to see your keeping this mature.

I get cranky without my nap. I haven't had one since, oh, Sunday. besides,
I figured any words over four letters were going over your head by now.

>third while mr wieck doesnt have a problem with you, they had to get

the official art from capcom and you dont have capcoms permission to
use it.

...and I'm sure they'll start cracking down on all the Street Fighter
fansites any day now. Capcom has already shown they don't care who does
what with their artwork. In the meantime, I'll consider permission of the
book's author to reproduce content from the book good enough, thank you.

"white wolf is bound by this to the point that they even said
THEY are no longer allowed to use capcoms liscense so i dont see how
he could give you permission to use something he doesnt own."

he said that they were unable to release any new books with the Street
Fighter name. The majority of the books beyond SFSTG and SoS didn't have
much, if any, original Capcom artwork in it anyway. They kept a complete
hands-off approach to the project and let White Wolf handle it however they
wanted.

"fourth, hmm, oh yeah, one of my obssessive links is not to a picture,
its to where you quoted the book. you said you were senile if you
did that:)"

does anybody want to explain to me how compiling and reformatting
information from across a list of references constitutes a direct quote?
reproduction? anyone?

>fifth is i know the difference, im just making a point. and the

front of the book DOES expressly forbid the reproduction of parts you
reproduced.

...without permission. Which I had.

>and at last, point number 6. (the point of the beast)

>if we were having a calm discussion about property rights, why would

you erupt into a cursing madman if i used sarcasm to make a point
about hypocrasy?

because I am in a VERY bad mood right now and I AM TIRED OF THIS TOPIC
COMING UP EVERY THREE MONTHS.

> "'Stealing' is downloading and playing Max Payne. 'Scavenging' is
> downloading and playing The Bard's Tale."

> Bad example.

Poop. I thought I had a good one there, too. But, you see the
point: the reason Bards Tale is a bad example is because its being
used.

just because capcom doesnt waste time cracking down on it doesnt mean
its not wrong. do you have capcoms express permission?
if steve cant make new books under the sf liscense how can he legally
authorise picture usage for new material (your site)

i dont think just cuz he went there and didnt mention it that it
means he gave his permission.

see below for the rest pal.

> >if we were having a calm discussion about property rights, why

would

> you erupt into a cursing madman if i used sarcasm to make a point
> about hypocrasy?
>
> because I am in a VERY bad mood right now and I AM TIRED OF THIS

TOPIC

> COMING UP EVERY THREE MONTHS.

RRRRR HULK NO LIKE TOPIC.
if hulk no like topic, maybe hulk shouldnt read topic.

if you got that mad at my "words".

do NOT check to see what i changed the pictures that were the book
scans to.

do NOT look there, you will have an anurism....

| if you got that mad at my "words".
|
| do NOT check to see what i changed the pictures that were the book
| scans to.
|
| do NOT look there, you will have an anurism....

Don't you think you've gone a bit too far now?
Let's drop this.

____________________________________________________
Fred Chagnon "Only in RPGs does fighting
seagull@... make you a better person."
seagull@... - Peter Olafson

hello, I have dropped it.
by changing those pics I am getting rid of anything i scanned.

I quit.
I am NOT going to scan the book.
dropped.

besides,,, didnt I say not to go there?
I expressly denied viewing that even for personal use.
you are violating my rights! the us patent office says that a work is
patented legally when it is created and filing for patent just eases
the task of proving who made it first. that is my copyrighted work.
lol

on a different note altogether, if some un-named company denies the
right to reproduce something except for this one exception where you
can "photocopy" part of it. legally that doesnt mean you can scan it
does it?
just wondering.
also since they NEVER allowed DISTRIBUTING the PHOTOCOPY (this un-
named company) its probably illegal to distribute a scan by posting
it online huh.

all character sheets online are the devil!

matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Fred Chagnon" <seagull@a...> wrote:
> | if you got that mad at my "words".
> |
> | do NOT check to see what i changed the pictures that were the
book
> | scans to.
> |
> | do NOT look there, you will have an anurism....
>
> Don't you think you've gone a bit too far now?
> Let's drop this.
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Fred Chagnon "Only in RPGs does fighting
> seagull@a... make you a better person."
> seagull@n... - Peter Olafson

fred,
why should i drop it.
I am a big fan of capcom and im supposed to sit idly by while someone
illegally reproduces their art just to spice up a boring web-page?

Hey, are you really comfortable as an ADMINISTRATOR suggesting that i
should turn a blind eye to this?

thats like officially condoning it as an admin.
that could shut the board down.

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Fred Chagnon" <seagull@a...> wrote:

> Don't you think you've gone a bit too far now?
> Let's drop this.
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Fred Chagnon "Only in RPGs does fighting
> seagull@a... make you a better person."
> seagull@n... - Peter Olafson

and via e mail you offered to send me e mails with full headers to
prove you and mike were very concerned and were talking about this
last night.(trying to convince me you dont care what steve says)

did you know that if you dont get mikes permission to do that, then
by receiving and redirecting his e mail you are guilty of illegal
interception of a communication?

ha, coulda gotcha!

since thats what ppl here are concerned with.

and steve, that abusive msg you sent could be construed as slander
and I can sue for damages in a court of law. you cant just assualt
me like that legally ya know.

god this board is full of criminals!!!!

go to http://www.uspto.gov/
and
http://law.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%
2Fwww.templetons.com%2Fbrad%2Fcopymyths.html

its all right there in black and white...

the street fighter logo is a trademark of which you are also
violating.

furthermore you need the "EXPRESS" permission of the copyright holder
to use copyrighted pictures. this means a note or letter from CAPCOM
(the owner) saying that you can reproduce their pictures.
implying it by not doing anything about it is not enough!
you need capcoms legal go-ahead, not white wolfs...and yo uneed it in
writing.

white wolf only had a temporary liscense to use the copyrighted
material. (capcom original artwork) You would need a similiar
liscense from CAPCOM to do the same. WHITE WOLF was NOT given
permission under their liscense to authorize other entities to use
CAPCOMS material.

also re formatting your styles information doesnt protect you because
in order to print it in ANY format can be only for short literary
reference. no longer than it needs to be.

there is no literary critique on your site at all and if there were
you would still not be allowed to print so much info under the "fair
use" provision in the law.

hell if re formatting it protected you i'd just tell the rules to sf
in my own words. but it doesnt, so legally we cant.

you have made your point steve, and I took down my scans and stopped
scanning the book. now be a man and remove those illegal pictures
from your site like i have pointed out. unless you can provide
written permission from CAPCOM (not ww) for you to use the likeness
of Cammy and Chun li for your site.

or can we only dish it out but not take it?
sinner....

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., Steve Karstensen <skarsten@o...> wrote:
> does anybody want to explain to me how compiling and reformatting
> information from across a list of references constitutes a direct
quote?
> reproduction? anyone?
>


>
> ...without permission. Which I had.
>

In a message dated 12/14/01 8:42:47 AM Central Standard Time, staredown@... writes:

--- "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@...> wrote:
> Your article on cheating in tournaments was exceptional. Very well written
> and thought out. I also enjoyed the Hook, Line and Sinker adventure ideas.
>
> Scott

Thank you.  It was hard to come up with an idea for an article that I hadn't
seen before in The Pride or a webpage (or even on this list).  I'm glad you
liked it.

I agree with Lord Pittman, it was one of the best things I've read yet.  The effort you put in it showed.  It was quite... inspirational.

I always enjoy Arkon's HLSs.  I think it's because he has the audacity to give
his NPCs more realistic, or at least different, motivations than those in, for
example, High Stakes, even when they're at odds with the PCs.

And thank you, both of you, for your compliments.  I try a few different things for the HLS, so I sometimes worry about them.  If I like how "Nerve" turns out, I may follow it with another serial HLS.

"Sit by my fire, and hear a tale."

Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Keeper of Mysteries; Circuit Folklorist; Seeker of the Lost Paths

i must say as well, that was a VERY good article.

I hate to confess but i never read warriors pride till i heard about
this article, then i downloaded them all.

i hope the positive feedback here keeps your creative juices flowing.

--- In streetfighter@y..., arkondloc@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/14/01 8:42:47 AM Central Standard Time,
> staredown@r... writes:
>
> > --- "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> > > Your article on cheating in tournaments was exceptional. Very
well written
> > > and thought out. I also enjoyed the Hook, Line and Sinker
adventure ideas.
> > >
> > > Scott
> >
> > Thank you. It was hard to come up with an idea for an article
that I hadn't
> > seen before in The Pride or a webpage (or even on this list).
I'm glad you
> >
>
> I agree with Lord Pittman, it was one of the best things I've read
yet. The
> effort you put in it showed. It was quite... inspirational.
>
> > I always enjoy Arkon's HLSs. I think it's because he has the
audacity to
> > give
> > his NPCs more realistic, or at least different, motivations than
those in,
> > for
> > example, High Stakes, even when they're at odds with the PCs.
>
> And thank you, both of you, for your compliments. I try a few
different
> things for the HLS, so I sometimes worry about them. If I like
how "Nerve"
> turns out, I may follow it with another serial HLS.
>
> "Sit by my fire, and hear a tale."
>
> Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Keeper of Mysteries; Circuit Folklorist;
Seeker of
> the Lost Paths

consider this post a petition.
reply to it positively if you want to save the site "street fighter
central"

currently it just says:
-------------------------------------------------
Street Fighter Central

August 1997 - December 2001

"Why does he fight?"

- Sakura, Street Fighter Alpha: The Movie
-------------------------------------------------

implying that it is dead now with its epitaph-like date.

i was only trying to ruffle the big guys feathers.
make him see what he was doing to me.
see that the group's all fun and games when we are being nice to each
other but when someone's in a bad mood and drags the law and threats
into it, it ceases to be fun.

Hell I just told him the law I didnt even threaten to turn him in
like he did to me.

so reply today and maybe with enough responses to this petition he
will bring back his site by popular demand.

And Steve, if this is what you are waiting for:
"I'm sorry. I honestly didn't think you would allow me to upset you
this badly."

Matt

Good God what the hell did I miss?

Matt, yes Fred and I were talking about our options with the scanning last
night.
Do I personally care if you scan the book? No, not really. Yes its a
copyright infringement. But so is copying a movie, anime, etc, cd, whatever.
I have done that. Hell, I even typed out the article from White Wolf
Inphobia. But as the list admins, yes, we have to be careful. I don't want
to get sued as Im sure you would understand.

But I'm asking nicely here, can we please drop this? Lets go on talking
about Street Figther and such and drop the fighting and copyright stuff?

We've lost several members over the course of this, and I don't want to lose
anymore.

Mat, Steve, man, I love reading your stuff. And I would like to see you both
continue posting it on here.

I can understand how feelings were hurt, but lets just move pass this.

Cool?

Thanks everyone.

MikeM

-----Original Message-----
From: necro6hit [mailto:throwrocks@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 1:35 AM
To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [streetfighter] SAVE SF CENTRAL!


consider this post a petition.
reply to it positively if you want to save the site "street fighter
central"

currently it just says:
-------------------------------------------------
Street Fighter Central

August 1997 - December 2001

"Why does he fight?"

- Sakura, Street Fighter Alpha: The Movie
-------------------------------------------------

implying that it is dead now with its epitaph-like date.

i was only trying to ruffle the big guys feathers.
make him see what he was doing to me.
see that the group's all fun and games when we are being nice to each
other but when someone's in a bad mood and drags the law and threats
into it, it ceases to be fun.

Hell I just told him the law I didnt even threaten to turn him in
like he did to me.

so reply today and maybe with enough responses to this petition he
will bring back his site by popular demand.

And Steve, if this is what you are waiting for:
"I'm sorry. I honestly didn't think you would allow me to upset you
this badly."

Matt






Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-----Original Message-----
From: arkondloc@... [mailto:arkondloc@...]
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 1:20 AM
To: streetfighter@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Warrior's Pride 7

In a message dated 12/14/01 8:42:47 AM Central Standard Time, staredown@... writes:

--- "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@...> wrote:
> Your article on cheating in tournaments was exceptional. Very well written
> and thought out. I also enjoyed the Hook, Line and Sinker adventure ideas.
>
> Scott

Thank you.  It was hard to come up with an idea for an article that I hadn't
seen before in The Pride or a webpage (or even on this list).  I'm glad you
liked it.

I agree with Lord Pittman, it was one of the best things I've read yet.  The effort you put in it showed.  It was quite... inspirational.

I always enjoy Arkon's HLSs.  I think it's because he has the audacity to give
his NPCs more realistic, or at least different, motivations than those in, for
example, High Stakes, even when they're at odds with the PCs.

And thank you, both of you, for your compliments.  I try a few different things for the HLS, so I sometimes worry about them.  If I like how "Nerve" turns out, I may follow it with another serial HLS.

"Sit by my fire, and hear a tale."

Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Keeper of Mysteries; Circuit Folklorist; Seeker of the Lost Paths

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

i agree completely mike.
thats why I started the petition, and was actually big enough to
appologise when I upset someone (contact me for a definition as i
realize that is a strange new concept).

Iv'e already dropped it and was going to be nothing but positive to
Steve from the petition on out once i saw how serious he was taking
all of it.

The last thing I expected was for him to take down his entire page!

Well, he said he was in a bad mood @ the time, let's hope that he
comes around.

Matt

> it'd be different if nobody had contacted White Wolf. Compliance by
> silence, I suppose you could call it. At least you could feign ignorance,
> albiet thinly.
>
> but we did, and they. said. no. That's the bottom line. We've gotten it
> from the president himself; no full reproductions of the printed works.
> Period. They've no problem with fansites, artwork or no. They are unable
> to reprint the works because the agreement with Capcom expired. We are
> unable to reprint the works, for obvious reasons.

Hoorah. Hoorah. Good words of wisdom.
As long as the books are still available somehow, why even consider posting
them
on the internet. It seems they are still obtainable either through this list
or ebay.
It seems to me that putting up a copyrighted book in its entirety is just a
major insult to the people who wrote it
and those who own the rights. Although since I have the books I want, I feel
I am in no position to preach, merely try and empathize.

I just had one question for someone in the know (probably Steve since I
believe I saw it on his page):
Didn't the official e-mail from White Wolf about publishing the books on the
internet simply state that they couldn't give permission?
Obviously, there were more than just the one I saw which already clarified
the question I'm about to ask. Couldn't the above statement possibly be
understood as they simply couldn't give permission. It didn't say, "No, you
can't." It was almost more of a "don't ask, we don't care" statement,
deferring you to Capcom - if anyone. The question/answer that would pretty
much settle things simply put would be, "Will you bring legal action against
someone who does this?"
However, the message from the President of WW pretty much said that
according to the e-mail I'm replying to.

Of course, the not so easy way around this entire problem is simply to write
your own Street Fighter RPG, which I'm surprised there's not more SF RPGs
than just the White Wolf-one.
Perhaps, put up an adaption for the WW: Combat book to add in the moves from
the Street Fighter RPG to make a slightly watered-down version. (That way, a
relatively small amount of stuff would need to be put-up and you could
simply defer someone to get the White Wolf: Combat book and any other one WW
book that tells you how to make a normal person).

Has anyone here written their own gamesystem specifically to play Street
Fighter in or adapted a game system besides White Wolf?

Tony Figueroa "Knight of the Black Rose"
Street Fighter RPG/STG: http://home.fuse.net/shermie/

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Tony Figueroa" <tony.figueroa@f...> wrote:

> It seems to me that putting up a copyrighted book in its entirety

is just a

> major insult to the people who wrote it
> and those who own the rights.

I'm not going to do this anymore. but if you look at it another way
it could be seen as a major compliment instead of a major insult.
They arent making money on it anymore so its less like stealing now
and more like "taking a picture of a sculpture you visit" a work of
art, and posting it on the net for everyone to enjoy. were not taking
money from any company but just sharing something we think is good.
isnt that what lifes all about?

but im not going to do it anymore, so you dont have to convince me
not to.

>It was almost more of a "don't ask, we don't care" statement,
> deferring you to Capcom - if anyone.

That was my understanding of the situation. but maybe we misread it
and it actually says: "we asked and they said no"

This will be a list for the discussion of getting
books. Either through stores or other means. It will
be off this list. I appoligize if this post offends
anyone but I'm still interested in the topic but don't
want anyone to have to be involved if they don't want
to.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/streetfighter_rpg

Um yeah that's about it. The email account I use for
groups is false anyway so I'm not too worried. So if
the topic still interests you come aboard. If no one
joins then that's cool too.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Okay... Hmm..
I created some of my maneuvers with CHAMPS, and they came out WAY too
cheap. IMO that is.
But else I liked the system.

I didn't like that you just disregarded the add-on maneuvers totally.
I like Psychokinetic channeling and such.

I miss add-on advantage.


-----Ronin-----

--- In streetfighter@y..., "J. Scott Pittman" <joespitt@t...> wrote:
> "AND, the CHAMPS system looked good, but I fear what it would create
> in the hands of an experienced min-maxing number cruncher. I say
> that without having really studied the system yet... its a project
> I'm doing right now."
>
> Well, I would love to have some players and Storytellers out there
try it out and find the bugs in the system, if any. The creation
process for Maneuvers, Styles and Backgrounds was created with number
crunchers in mind. As you can see, the Maneuvers that most everyone
thinks were unbalanced did come out unbalanced in the system when I
tested it by converting all of the Street Fighter Maneuvers to CHAMPS
Street Fighter Maneuvers. I even gave my version of the "corrected"
ones (but as stated before, each "version" of any Maneuver is still a
legal Maneuver in the system if the points add up).
> If you would like to send any Maneuvers, Styles, or Backgrounds
you make up using the system, I would gladly go over them carefully
and make sure they add up. I have a few Maneuvers sent in by players
already posted as I am sure you have seen.
> Sometime soon, I will try to get around to adding even more
advantages and drawbacks to that section. Any suggestions would be
appreciated.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mean_liar
> To: streetfighter@y...
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 10:45 PM
> Subject: [streetfighter] (unknown)
>
>
> --- In streetfighter@y..., "necro6hit" <throwrocks@b...> wrote:
> > here are some samples of how big ive been scanning
>
> Holy crap. You've played a bit, I see.
>
> > ok?
>
> If the book is at >3mb in a zip, thats great! As a side note, did
> you know that .pdf has 2 forms -- Pagemaker and Photoshop? I assume
> if you've converted them into .pdf Photoshop files, they'll be huge -
> - its designed for all the layering crap etc. of Photoshop, and not
> the whole 'print this e-z' stuff of Pagemaker.
>
> And no, I haven't played SF much. I have a degree in Math and a
> keen interest in game design.
>
> AND, the CHAMPS system looked good, but I fear what it would create
> in the hands of an experienced min-maxing number cruncher. I say
> that without having really studied the system yet... its a project
> I'm doing right now.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Bard's tale IS abandonware though.

So it is actually perfectly legal to download it and play it.


-----Ronin-----

--- In streetfighter@y..., Steve Karstensen <skarsten@o...> wrote:
>
> "'Stealing' is downloading and playing Max Payne. 'Scavenging' is
> downloading and playing The Bard's Tale."
>
> Bad example.
>
> Interplay's "The Ultimate RPG Archives", currently sitting on my desk,
> contains the Bard's Tale Trilogy. I bought it like, a year ago.

thats just sad.
why not set up a new group for EVERY subject line.

that way no one will EVER "be involved if they dont want to."

where i come from, if you dont wanna be involved with something you
just dont get involved. doesnt mean you have to stop others from
doing it.

--- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> This will be a list for the discussion of getting
> books. Either through stores or other means. It will
> be off this list. I appoligize if this post offends
> anyone but I'm still interested in the topic but don't
> want anyone to have to be involved if they don't want
> to.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/streetfighter_rpg
>
> Um yeah that's about it. The email account I use for
> groups is false anyway so I'm not too worried. So if
> the topic still interests you come aboard. If no one
> joins then that's cool too.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

This list is dedicated to the fans of the Street Fighter Storyteller
game by White Wolf. The game is no longer in print but there are
fans of the game that are still out there. In this list you may
discuss rules, scenarios, adventures and anything else that is Street
Fighter related.

--- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> This will be a list for the discussion of getting
> books. Either through stores or other means. It will
> be off this list. I appoligize if this post offends
> anyone but I'm still interested in the topic but don't
> want anyone to have to be involved if they don't want
> to.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/streetfighter_rpg
>
> Um yeah that's about it. The email account I use for
> groups is false anyway so I'm not too worried. So if
> the topic still interests you come aboard. If no one
> joins then that's cool too.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

> thats just sad.
> why not set up a new group for EVERY subject line.
>
> that way no one will EVER "be involved if they dont want to."
>
> where i come from, if you dont wanna be involved with something you
> just dont get involved. doesnt mean you have to stop others from
> doing it.

Okay, a moderator *asked* to take it off the list...common courtesy is to
take it off the list when that happens.

You went off on Steve throwing a fit, when you're in serious danger of doing
that yourself...even after the biggest opponent to all of this was turning a
blind eye, and the moderator in question just wanted the topic off-list.

Yeesh.

Tommy

ya know, I dropped this with the petition post.

If I have nothing to reply to it will stay dropped all by itself.

--- In streetfighter@y..., Jason Obeston <callanme@y...> wrote:
> This will be a list for the discussion of getting
> books. Either through stores or other means. It will
> be off this list. I appoligize if this post offends
> anyone but I'm still interested in the topic but don't
> want anyone to have to be involved if they don't want
> to.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/streetfighter_rpg
>
> Um yeah that's about it. The email account I use for
> groups is false anyway so I'm not too worried. So if
> the topic still interests you come aboard. If no one
> joins then that's cool too.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

hmm another one...

turning a blind eye?
who turned a blind eye?
I only remember someone saying: (cue doctor evils voice)
"AAAALL I have to do is press a button and Steve Wieck will CRUSH
YOU! MUAHAHAHAHAAAAA. I'll pretend i didnt see this, BUT WHO
KNOWS...."

and fyi, from the time the moderator told me that I said I would not
copy the books.

so how the hell am i not complying?

If fred or steve had a problem with the truth in my sarcasm maybe it
hit too close to home.

steve said "the gloves are off" but look at his page....
Is it ok for other ppl to point out that IM doing something illegal
they want stopped but I cant do the same to them?

they dished it but cant take it.
period.
and I dropped it with the petition. quit giving me things to reply
to and it will stay dropped...

Matt

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Tommy Brownell" <tommyb@s...> wrote:
> > thats just sad.
> > why not set up a new group for EVERY subject line.
> >
> > that way no one will EVER "be involved if they dont want to."
> >
> > where i come from, if you dont wanna be involved with something
you
> > just dont get involved. doesnt mean you have to stop others from
> > doing it.
>
> Okay, a moderator *asked* to take it off the list...common courtesy
is to
> take it off the list when that happens.
>
> You went off on Steve throwing a fit, when you're in serious danger
of doing
> that yourself...even after the biggest opponent to all of this was
turning a
> blind eye, and the moderator in question just wanted the topic off-
list.
>
> Yeesh.
>
> Tommy

serious danger of doing that myself?
how many curses were in steves msg?
And I reply by making my points,
which is usually stating fact.
legal or otherwise.

I dont see how you think Im dangerously close to doing what steve
did. have I called anyone funny names? jumped up and down and said i
need a nappie? threatened to get anyone in legal trouble????? I just
stated that he was breaking the law i didnt even STOOOOOP so low to
threaten him.

Way to go tommy.

--- In streetfighter@y..., "Tommy Brownell" <tommyb@s...> wrote:
> > thats just sad.
> > why not set up a new group for EVERY subject line.
> >
> > that way no one will EVER "be involved if they dont want to."
> >
> > where i come from, if you dont wanna be involved with something
you
> > just dont get involved. doesnt mean you have to stop others from
> > doing it.
>
> Okay, a moderator *asked* to take it off the list...common courtesy
is to
> take it off the list when that happens.
>
> You went off on Steve throwing a fit, when you're in serious danger
of doing
> that yourself...even after the biggest opponent to all of this was
turning a
> blind eye, and the moderator in question just wanted the topic off-
list.
>
> Yeesh.
>
> Tommy