one thing I'd like to clarify is that I won't dock a fighter Honor the
second he picks up a gun. Using a gun in combat, especially a street fight,
against another opponent who most likely will not be similarly armed, is my
criteria for firearm honor loss. Sticking a gun up someone's nose and
offering to clean his sinuses for him most likely won't cost you, but if
you're jumped by ninja and you go for your gun, you're looking to lose a
dot.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Hoffmann [mailto:staredown@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 12:14 PM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death


--- Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...> wrote:

> Something may occur soon in the game I'm in when the other storyteller is
> running. We've been trying to decide on what to do and haven't come to an
> agreement.
>
> One of the characters was horribly sexually (and almost fatally
> humiliated/assaulted) after being caught by a Shadoloo operative. (Yes,
> the other storyteller scares us all.)
>
> Anyhow, the special forces character has decided he must kill the
> perpetrator. He's pretty much enraged. When and if he finally kills the
> perpetrator, what sort of consequence should there be as far as honor and
> such? The real world consequences aren't that hard to figure out
> (authorities, upset enemies, etc).
>
> If he kills him in combat and not after knocking him out, that could be
> different than cold-blooded murder, but I don't know what will happen.
> (Depends if he shoots him while concious or ko'd, he's special forces, of
> course he'll use a gun if he wants to kill - the book says nothing about
> using guns outside of tournaments - the use of a gun will not be a factor
> in deciding the consequences of this so please don't make that a factor
> in your advice to me). Since it's not done yet, it's actually yet to be
> seen how this will happen anyway.
>
> Should the character make a roll to see how well he handles it (and
> account for honor less). Is one permanent honor too much or too little to
> lose?

I'm with Steve on this one (except for gun use automatically costing honor,
see
below). Since honor is how the fighting community perceives you, and most
fighters accept (and embrace) the concept of Vendetta (Chun-Li, Sagat,
Guile,
etc.) they'll see her actions as, if not perfectly noble, at least as
honorable
and resonable.

And as far as guns go, it depends on how the gun's used. Sniping the
bastard
from 3 stories up is dishonorable regardless of what you use to snipe with.
On
the other hand if she walks up to the guy, sticks the gun under his nose and
says, "You're a dead man, Ramsey.", then there's no honor loss since the guy
got fair warning and a chance to defend himself. Of course, this would be
dishonorable in the really real world, but since the guy could catch teh
bullets if you wanted him to, it still an even fight.

=====
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"We don't expect kittens to fight wildcats and win
--we merely expect them to try."
-- Robert Heinlein

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O Using a gun in combat, especially a

> street fight,
> against another opponent who most likely will not be similarly
> armed, is my
> criteria for firearm honor loss.

Well, being jumped by ninja isn't anywhere near a tournament match or an
honorable fight.


Sticking a gun up someone's nose

> and
> offering to clean his sinuses for him most likely won't cost you,
> but if
> you're jumped by ninja and you go for your gun, you're looking to
> lose a
> dot.

I don't think a character who would carry a gun would lose anything by
pulling a gun in this situation (one guy surrounded by ninja who are
probably armed). If it's one guy vs one unarmed ninja, then there's
possibly some honor loss, but not according to the book/gamescreen.
Still, I can see some honor penalty (for any gun use) being in keeping
with the tone of the game (just not the -1 permanent for use in
tournaments), as long as the enemy isn't similarly armed.

Thanks for the input concerning my original question.

Tony

Hmmm. Pride demands that I come up with some uber villans that no one's named
yet, so here's my list. On the off chance you haven't met any of these guys
yet, there's spoilers, so consider yourself cautioned.

10. Raditz (DBZ) - First off, the guy's a Sayjin, so he's automatically a
planet buster. Second, he's probably the smartest person in the show because
he sees his goal _and does not get side tracked from it_! Every thing he does
is either directly related to his goal (get Goku/Kakkarot back on the True way
of the Sayjin) or killing time until he can continue with his goal. That's a
trick most good guys can't pull off. Third, anyone who can make Piccolo wet
himself and run crying to Goku, has coolness points to spare.

9. Kagato (Tenchi TV series) - There's three reasons this guy made the cut and
not the infinitely more powerful OAV version. First off is that the writers
gave him a reason, however cliched, for being a bad guy (he fell into the dark
side of the Jurai). The second is that he actually pulled off a big part of
the OAV version's goal (galactic domination) when he took over the Jurai
empire. And finally, the TV version actually looked like a warrior. The OAV
version looked like my school librarian.

8. Baron Dark (Skeleton Warriors) - He's on the list mostly because of a
personal theory of mine. I think that cool CGI skull that talks to the
audience at the begining and end of each show is an internal monologue running
through Dark's mind. But since it's only a theory, and I can't find anything
to back it up, he doesn't get the coveted one spot he deserves.

7. Toyo Harada (Valiant) - Toyo has an almost Magneto-esque view on humanity
and believes that his people (Harbingers, basically mutants) are the next step
in human evolution. But instead of conquering earth, he wants to conquer space
by sending out colony ships of teenage harbingers to some earthlike unnamed
planet. While he controls a vast corporate empire, his personal power is even
more formidable. Posessing roughly Tetsuo level Telepathy and telekinesis
(also called the omega power), and decades of experience, he scares people like
Solar (who, since he recreated the universe after he screwed up and destroyed
it, is basically god).

6. Gambit's Dopelganger (Marvel) - If you take Gambit, add a seriously
murderous and sadistic streak, you get Gambit's Dopelganger (or GD for short).
Good old GD made the list because of a particular piece of dialog between him
and Nomad.

GD: "Only way to see the good in people, is to open them up and look."
N: "What's inside you gumbo?"
GD: "Same as you. Dark things."

Even though I really don't care for gambit anymore (he was much cooler before
he joined the X-men) that little exchange will stick in my mind for the rest of
my life.

5. Bester (Babylon 5) - The most powerful non-vorlon enhanced telepath in
known space, Bester is an manipulative, murderous, amoral, nazi-esque bastard
to anyone who wan't a telepath and therefor beneath him. But among his own
people (telepaths) he was a hero, role model, protector, and benefactor. But
then again, Napoleon liked horses.

4. Rezo (Slayers) - The blind red priest, one of the great sages, and the man
who housed one seventh of Dark Lord Shabrinigdo's power, probably the most
powerful wizard who ever lived, and the most soft-spoken bad guy you'll ever
meet. I like Rezo because he's like Raditz. He never lost sight (so to speak)
of his ultimate goal, curing his blindness. Even after centuries of failure he
finally found a way that might work, revive Ruby Eyed Shabrinigdo and command
him to restore his sight. Of course, once he did that, Shabrinigdo would be
free to continue on with his original plan, destroying the world, but don't
worry, Rezo had a plan to deal with that.

3. Master Darque (Valiant) - Even though he's a bit one dimensional in his
obsessive pursuit of necromantic power, the sheer scope and evil of some of his
plans warent his place on this list. Probably his two most impressive feats
were, mystically controlling Solar (the guy who recreated the universe,
remember?), and, after finding out he couldn't maintain his control, went and
created his slave and Solar's opposite number, Dr. Eclipse

2. Dorothy "Twig-brows" Catalonia (Gundam Wing) - Not really a villan per se,
but definately an antagonist in the story. no 1: She's a sixteen year old
(give or take) girl who seems to have the best grasp of the political situation
of anyone in the show, and knows how to use this knowledge. no 2: She shows a
bit of a setimental side when she fights back her tears after she learns that
her uncle (who she manipulated into going to that battlefield) dies. no 3: Even
though she never set's foot in a mobile suit (that we see anyway), she's got
enough willpower to hold off the mind-warping Zero system while remotely
controlling god knows how many mobile suits in battle against the gundam boys.
no 4: She fences well enough to take out Quatre in personal combat. Major
bonus points for that (my list. my rules.)

Only two things held her back from being number one. First she seems to have
swiped Ken's eyebrow style (hence the twig-brows reference). But that pales in
comparrison to her other major sin, that every other thing she says basically
amounts to "Relena's cool", thus showing she's the most mentally unbalanced
person in the series (and that's saying something).

1. Mr. Sinister (Marvel) - At least as powerful a telepath as Xavier, as strong
as spider man, has his own private clone army of mutants, makes long ranged
plans involving the Summers blood line that actually seem to be working, and
has the best fashion sense of anyone in the marvel universe, up to and
including Mary Jane Watson/Parker. This man is a force that even Doom,
Magneto, and Thanos would be reluctant to cross without some major _major_
forethought.

Honorable mentions:

Jar-Jar "Messa ruined Star Wars" Binks (Phantom Menace) - No redeaming features
what-so-ever! Quite possibly the greatest evil since barney. No villan list
should be without him.

Fight Card (Card Captor Sakura) - If you don't like Ryu because he only lives
for the fight, you'll hate her because she only exists for the fight. Near as
I can tell from this schedually-challenged show (can anyone explain to me why
the fuck they're showing the episodes out of order?) the fight card is
magically distilled fighting spirit that only exists to challenge worthy
opponents. Since she aparently has no personality out side of a Japanese
warrior etiquette, she's not really a villan, but I like her, so I put her
here.

The Cigarette Smoking Man (X-Files) - You have to admire a guy who covertly
runs a nation, and yet is so incorruptable that he has to live in a flop house
because he refuses to use his power for personal gain. I mean, granted this
guy's probably indirectly killed more people than the black death, but still
wouldn't it be nice if our congressmen were just a bit more like him?

Magus (Crono Trigger) - The man with the plan (do you see a trend here? Good
Guys of the multiverse, watch and learn!) who summoned awakned lavos so that he
could kill him. Failing to do it on his own (and that's your fault, BTW. If
you hadn't interfeared, he probably could have pulled it off), he joins up with
Crono's team (assuming you don't kill him, the choice is yours) so that he gets
another crack at it.

=====
staredown@... http://members.xoom.com/staredown

"We don't expect kittens to fight wildcats and win
--we merely expect them to try."
-- Robert Heinlein

__________________________________________________
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A thug would not incur an honor penalty for using a gun, however any Street
Fighter who does likewise would. The reason for this is because by
resorting to a gun, a common tool available to everyone, you are basically
saying "I have no faith in my style and need help." the honor penalty
reflects this. as a Street Fighter you are expected to rely on your
fighting skill. to live and die by your art is the most imporant thing, and
your honor rating reflects how closely you do this. if you resort to a gun
(notice I didn't say "Weapon available to my style") to save your bacon in a
life or death situation, you do not trust your fighting skills well enough
to put your life on. that says something about your confidence in yourself,
and no fighter who is unconfident in himself deserves an Honor score.

thoughts?

-----Original Message-----
From: Knight of the Black Rose [mailto:anton_figueroa@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 3:40 PM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death


O Using a gun in combat, especially a

> street fight,
> against another opponent who most likely will not be similarly
> armed, is my
> criteria for firearm honor loss.

Well, being jumped by ninja isn't anywhere near a tournament match or an
honorable fight.


Sticking a gun up someone's nose

> and
> offering to clean his sinuses for him most likely won't cost you,
> but if
> you're jumped by ninja and you go for your gun, you're looking to
> lose a
> dot.

I don't think a character who would carry a gun would lose anything by
pulling a gun in this situation (one guy surrounded by ninja who are
probably armed). If it's one guy vs one unarmed ninja, then there's
possibly some honor loss, but not according to the book/gamescreen.
Still, I can see some honor penalty (for any gun use) being in keeping
with the tone of the game (just not the -1 permanent for use in
tournaments), as long as the enemy isn't similarly armed.

Thanks for the input concerning my original question.

Tony

In a message dated 00-08-22 17:01:23 EDT, you write:

<< A thug would not incur an honor penalty for using a gun, however any Street
Fighter who does likewise would. The reason for this is because by
resorting to a gun, a common tool available to everyone, you are basically
saying "I have no faith in my style and need help." the honor penalty
reflects this. as a Street Fighter you are expected to rely on your
fighting skill. to live and die by your art is the most imporant thing, and
your honor rating reflects how closely you do this. if you resort to a gun
(notice I didn't say "Weapon available to my style") to save your bacon in a
life or death situation, you do not trust your fighting skills well enough
to put your life on. that says something about your confidence in yourself,
and no fighter who is unconfident in himself deserves an Honor score. >>

Personally, I find it rather funny that this debate is even occuring. After
all, guns are useless in Street Fighter, though I do agree with your points.

useless? tell that to the Wits 5 Firearms 5 guy using a Shotgun.

;)

a low-stat thug with a gun probably isn't going to stand a chance against a
trained Street Fighter who gets close to him. however, a couple of good
marksmen who aren't stupid enough to get near their target will put some
hurt on even the most skilled warriors.

-----Original Message-----
From: firefirefi@... [mailto:firefirefi@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 5:05 PM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death


In a message dated 00-08-22 17:01:23 EDT, you write:

<< A thug would not incur an honor penalty for using a gun, however any
Street
Fighter who does likewise would. The reason for this is because by
resorting to a gun, a common tool available to everyone, you are basically
saying "I have no faith in my style and need help." the honor penalty
reflects this. as a Street Fighter you are expected to rely on your
fighting skill. to live and die by your art is the most imporant thing,
and
your honor rating reflects how closely you do this. if you resort to a gun
(notice I didn't say "Weapon available to my style") to save your bacon in
a
life or death situation, you do not trust your fighting skills well enough
to put your life on. that says something about your confidence in
yourself,
and no fighter who is unconfident in himself deserves an Honor score. >>

Personally, I find it rather funny that this debate is even occuring. After
all, guns are useless in Street Fighter, though I do agree with your points.

I agree, so I've made gun damage aggravated in my campaign, and anyone who
is reduced to zero by gun damage dies.

>From: firefirefi@...
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death
>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 17:04:34 EDT
>
>In a message dated 00-08-22 17:01:23 EDT, you write:
>
><< A thug would not incur an honor penalty for using a gun, however any
>Street
> Fighter who does likewise would. The reason for this is because by
> resorting to a gun, a common tool available to everyone, you are
>basically
> saying "I have no faith in my style and need help." the honor penalty
> reflects this. as a Street Fighter you are expected to rely on your
> fighting skill. to live and die by your art is the most imporant thing,
>and
> your honor rating reflects how closely you do this. if you resort to a
>gun
> (notice I didn't say "Weapon available to my style") to save your bacon
>in a
> life or death situation, you do not trust your fighting skills well
>enough
> to put your life on. that says something about your confidence in
>yourself,
> and no fighter who is unconfident in himself deserves an Honor score. >>
>
>Personally, I find it rather funny that this debate is even occuring. After
>all, guns are useless in Street Fighter, though I do agree with your
>points.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> and no fighter who is unconfident in himself deserves an Honor
> score.

The character I play recently lost her confidence, but I don't think that
would be sufficient reason to reduce her 9 Honor to zero. In fact, I
think a high honor score would be something that would help a character
to regain lost confidence.

(On the gun note, guns do aggravated damage in our game too although we
don't have a hard fast rule on death - we consider it when the health
drops to negative the positive number.)

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"

That's depend of the chronicle, I don't think that any character
(like, Ryu, Ken, Gouki, Sagat...) could use the Psycho Drive. I think
that this is more a Bison's "private" machine, that only gives energy
with his DNA (or something) detected (Juni, Juli, Cammy and the other
girls have Bison's DNA). And, when Bison's energy isn't detected, it
drains the energy of the character that's inside of it, (like Birdie
in his SFZ3 ending, but It could also be that he doesn't know how to
cojnfigurate it...). But as I said.... it depends of the chronicle
and the mind of the storyteller.

Personally I think that only Bison and the Dolls could use it.

Vega/Bison

> I just meant that any of the other Shadaloo officers like Juli or

Juni could

> also be able to use the drive while they fight. I didn't think it

was used

> only for Bison to leech from, but for anyone who was "connected".

And as

> for taking energy, well I guess that would be for a character who

is thrown

> into the drive (like so many SFA3 endings).
>
>
> >From: "VEGA/Bison " <shadaloo@u...>
> >Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >Subject: [streetfighter] Re: FAQ outline - first draft
> >Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 13:33:21 -0000
> >
> > > In my chronicle, anyone connected to the Psycho Drive regains

one

> >point of
> > > Chi, Willpower, or Health each turn.
> >
> >Hum... er... OK. But the Psycho Drive should "take" one point of

Chi,

> >Willpower, or Health each turn from the characters and give it to
> >Vega/Bison. In your chronicle, the Psycho Drive isn't under
> >Vega/Bison's command anymore?
> >
> >VEGA/BISON
> >
>
>

______________________________________________________________________
__

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

http://www.hotmail.com

Here's my list of villians:

1. My favorite villian of all the time: Vega/M. Bison. He's such a
powerful and invincible character. Even with the mystery surrounding
his past. I'd like to posses those Psycho Powers.... so I could
conquer the world....

2. Shao Kahn (Mortal Kombat): The last boss of MK2, MK3, UMK3, MK
Trilogy. It's hilarious when he stops the fight to say something
like: "You suck!" "It's that your best?"

3. Onslaught (X-Men): Xavier and Magneto's powers united. This
destroyed New York and a lot of heroes (although I expected more of
the final battle.)

4: Pope Ares/Saga of Gemini (Saint Seiya): The master of the
sanctuary, I always thought that he has the face of a monster behind
his mask, but when he removed it.... he was like a teenager!! Even
his bad side has a good looking face.

5. Cammy, Juni, Juli and the DOlls (SF): Owww, those girls are so
cute..... and dangerous.

6. Shredder and Krang (TMNT): Those used to be my fave villians
before Vega/Bison. They are the arch enemies of the Turtles. Those
were good days....

7. Technodrome (TMNT): I know that it isn't a villian, but, It's my
fave fortress...

8: Mistique (X-Men) and Shang Tsung (MK): It's cool that they can
morph to another person.

9. Apocalypse (X-Men): This guy lived for centuries and it's one of
de worst enemies of the X-Men. I'd like to see him in the movie. THE
AGE OF APOCALYPSE ROCKS!!!!!!

10. Serpentera and Astronema (Power Rangers): Again, Serpentera is
not a villian, but a vehicle, like the pathetic zords of the Rangers,
but serpentera is cool cause it Heights of 1000meters. Astronema is
the villian of PR IN Space, she's so evil, sexy..... and her teleport
rocks.

In a message dated 00-08-22 17:38:49 EDT, you write:

<< useless? tell that to the Wits 5 Firearms 5 guy using a Shotgun.

;)

a low-stat thug with a gun probably isn't going to stand a chance against a
trained Street Fighter who gets close to him. however, a couple of good
marksmen who aren't stupid enough to get near their target will put some
hurt on even the most skilled warriors. >>

True enough. however, I've always considered weapons a waste of time in
Street Fighter with all the penalties attached to them. That goes for
standard weapons too...what's the point in putting dots in a sword skill when
it keeps you from using many maneuvers and costs you Honor nearly everytime
you use it?

| A thug would not incur an honor penalty for using a gun, however any
Street
| Fighter who does likewise would. The reason for this is because by
| resorting to a gun, a common tool available to everyone, you are basically
| saying "I have no faith in my style and need help." the honor penalty
| reflects this. as a Street Fighter you are expected to rely on your
| fighting skill. to live and die by your art is the most imporant thing,
and
| your honor rating reflects how closely you do this. if you resort to a
gun
| (notice I didn't say "Weapon available to my style") to save your bacon in
a
| life or death situation, you do not trust your fighting skills well enough
| to put your life on. that says something about your confidence in
yourself,
| and no fighter who is unconfident in himself deserves an Honor score.
|
| thoughts?

I agree completely with your points. I'm just wondering how this would
affect some character concepts like cop street fighters, or Army Vets, or
Special Agents. Characters like Guile, or Sonya Blade carry guns (and have
used them in stories that I've seen). Im sometimes tempted to believe that
some rules apply inside the ring, while not applying outside the ring.

Well, anyone who uses a gun inside the ring should docked, no questions
asked. But if part of your street fighter adventure includes some sort of
infiltration or a bust...is your character going to go unarmed while all of
his flunkies back him up with SWAT gear just because he believes in the
power of his Cartwheel Kick?

_______________________________________________________
Fred Chagnon "Only in RPGs does fighting
fchagnon@... make you a better person."
fchagnon@... - Peter Olafson

maybe for a martial artist... but arm a small group of thugs with
broadswords (as I did when my players went to India and met the Thugee) and
stuff can get nasty real quick.

Strength 3 + Sword 3 + Broadsword (+4) + Fierce (+3) = 13-die hits. From a
thug. Thugs attack in numbers. Imagine four people Fiercing you for almost
the same damage M. Bison does with his jabs. You'll have to be Zangief to
survive that for long.

Besides, as in real life, weapons training for a martial art usually comes
at the upper echelons of the style's curriculum. However, in the world of
Street Fighter, this training usually is never necessary because by then the
fighter can Teleport and throw Fireballs.

Weapons are also more efficient than Punches (their unarmed counterpart)
because a fighter's Weapon technique is added to their Soak when using a
Parry. This means that if you habitually fight with a weapon, you never
need raise your Block as your Weapon technique does the job of adding to
both your attack (weapon strikes) and defense (blocking).

-----Original Message-----
From: firefirefi@... [mailto:firefirefi@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 1:01 AM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death


In a message dated 00-08-22 17:38:49 EDT, you write:

<< useless? tell that to the Wits 5 Firearms 5 guy using a Shotgun.

;)

a low-stat thug with a gun probably isn't going to stand a chance against a
trained Street Fighter who gets close to him. however, a couple of good
marksmen who aren't stupid enough to get near their target will put some
hurt on even the most skilled warriors. >>

True enough. however, I've always considered weapons a waste of time in
Street Fighter with all the penalties attached to them. That goes for
standard weapons too...what's the point in putting dots in a sword skill
when
it keeps you from using many maneuvers and costs you Honor nearly everytime
you use it?

how it would affect the character concept is entirely up to the player and
gamemaster. I once had a cop who carried a gun, but it was only for
ordering people to 'freeze' and trick shots.

as to your second question, if the character is *truly* a martial artist,
yes. Don't forget that it's not uncommon for anime/martial arts superheroes
to take down entire hordes of people using only their training and some
quick thinking. Jet Li subduing six armed police officers while bound and
hanging by his ankles in "Romeo Must Die" comes to mind. And Li was not
even anywhere near a World Warrior in that film.

Nobody ever said the true way of a Warrior was easy, and if a character is
going to go on a SWAT bust, he has to make a decision. Is he willing to
test, live, and possibly die by his art? If not, then he had better take
the proper preparations (ballistics vest and M-16) just like his non-Fighter
comrades, and accept the hit on his Honor track, which reflects his
"ranking" in his self-confidence, faith in himself, and outward appearance
to others in his Fighter's clique. If so, he has much to gain, but also
much to lose. Such is the way of the "true" warrior.

"Were you not prepared to sacrifice your life to your art?"
"My life, yes! My manhood is another thing entirely!!"

- Genma and Ranma Saotome, "Ranma 1/2" (paraphrased)

I would not require a character whose confidence has faltered to lose a full
nine dots of Honor to reflect this. Occasional lapses are acceptable, and
even a longer-than-momentary fall from grace will not cause such a loss.
Indeed, that character may fall back on the benefits of their Honor rating
to redeem themselves to their former glory. However, if the character is
truly bitter, and continues to take action in ways that will result in more
penalties, then unfortunately the consequences will be more dire.

...then again, I did have one player who often said that once he got his
Honor to 10 he was going to go on a rampage tossing grenades at busses full
of nuns and things so he could go out in a blaze of glory. :p I had to move
Bison's air force off of Mriganka because he was willing to sacrifice the
entire party to rid the world of the evil that is Bison by blowing up one of
his Harriers.

-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Chagnon [mailto:seagull@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 7:39 AM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death

I agree completely with your points. I'm just wondering how this would
affect some character concepts like cop street fighters, or Army Vets, or
Special Agents. Characters like Guile, or Sonya Blade carry guns (and have
used them in stories that I've seen). Im sometimes tempted to believe that
some rules apply inside the ring, while not applying outside the ring.

Well, anyone who uses a gun inside the ring should docked, no questions
asked. But if part of your street fighter adventure includes some sort of
infiltration or a bust...is your character going to go unarmed while all of
his flunkies back him up with SWAT gear just because he believes in the
power of his Cartwheel Kick?

_______________________________________________________
Fred Chagnon "Only in RPGs does fighting
fchagnon@... make you a better person."
fchagnon@... - Peter Olafson

1) Majestic Crow Kung Fu - I'm pretty sure that this was made up, but given
the 1500 odd styles of Kung Fu there are, I could easily be wrong.
The stances used in the pictures, at least, are from Eagle and Immortal
Bird Styles. My Shaolin friend told me that no Crow style existed, but that
it sounded pretty "asian old martial arts" for western ears... ^_^!

True enough. however, I've always considered weapons a waste of time in
Street Fighter with all the penalties attached to them. That goes for
standard weapons too...what's the point in putting dots in a sword skill when
it keeps you from using many maneuvers and costs you Honor nearly everytime
you use it?

---

Just gotta be sure you only use them outside the ring and for good (against Shadoloo). You can also fight in Duellist matches. I don't think there's anything against using weapons against villains outside the ring if the character's concept includes the weapons. If a one on one situation were to occur however, it would be honorable to at least mention to your opponent that he may want to use a weapon.

Tony

> I always thought that the main point to basic grab
> is to have a basic maneuver
> that can beat the basic block. This let's us have a
> nice rock-scissor-paper
> thing going, at least in theory.

Yes, most fighting games (Tekken2 and WWF Warzone
being my top picks) use the rock/paper/scissors
system, and I agree that it's a good idea. Keep in
mind, though, that in the video games, everybody can
Jump and everybody can Throw. Unfortunately, in the
RPG you have to buy these Maneuvers. Thus, there is an
excuse for Basic Grab to exist.

But if you've seen the character creation guidelines
for my tournament, you know that I'm a die-hard
stickler for at least quasi-realism. :) I know that's
kind of silly in a Street Fighter context, but as
Einstein said, "...the universe is a very silly
place."

Yasu


=====
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Nobody ever said the true way of a Warrior was easy, and if a character is going to go on a SWAT bust, he has to make a decision. Is he willing to test, live, and possibly die by his art?

-----

Only if he's an utter idiot. There's such a thing as upholding the law. You can do your job and still be a "Warrior." There are rules for common sense, and there are rules for the Warrior. I would say a cop who does that on a bust should be docked Honor for being so vain as to throw down his gun and jeapordize the group.
Likewise, there would be no penalty for a special forces member to carry and use a gun in military combat. If he were to otherwise try to take out a bunker of armed soldiers, he would die. Period. However, if the enemy decided they really wanted to Fight and the character just shot them, that would be some serious honor loss (i.e. when you reach the big boss who is going to crush you with his hands, you must defeat him in hand to hand combat).

I'm not saying you can't do dishonorable things with a gun in a situation where using one would be OK by the standards I'm saying (actually firing on unarmed people in a situation where non-lethal force would be acceptable, etc.).

----

If not, then he had better take
the proper preparations (ballistics vest and M-16) just like his non-Fighter comrades, and accept the hit on his Honor track, which reflects his "ranking" in his self-confidence, faith in himself, and outward appearance

----

As I've said above, I don't agree, but then again, this would only apply to certain characters whose concepts include them as gun toting on the job. For most all other characters doing the things you describe, I would agree with you completely.

Tony

----- Original Message -----

From: Knight of the Black Rose

To: streetfighter@egroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:47 PM

Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death

Nobody ever said the true way of a Warrior was easy, and if a character is going to go on a SWAT bust, he has to make a decision.  Is he willing to test, live, and possibly die by his art? 

-----

Only if he's an utter idiot. There's such a thing as upholding the law. You can do your job and still be a "Warrior." There are rules for common sense, and there are rules for the Warrior. I would say a cop who does that on a bust should be docked Honor for being so vain as to throw down his gun and jeapordize the group.
Likewise, there would be no penalty for a special forces member to carry and use a gun in military combat. If he were to otherwise try to take out a bunker of armed soldiers, he would die. Period. However, if the enemy decided they really wanted to Fight and the character just shot them, that would be some serious honor loss (i.e. when you reach the big boss who is going to crush you with his hands, you must defeat him in hand to hand combat).

I'm not saying you can't do dishonorable things with a gun in a situation where using one would be OK by the standards I'm saying (actually firing on unarmed people in a situation where non-lethal force would be acceptable, etc.).

----

If not, then he had better take
the proper preparations (ballistics vest and M-16) just like his non-Fighter comrades, and accept the hit on his Honor track, which reflects his "ranking" in his self-confidence, faith in himself, and outward appearance

----

As I've said above, I don't agree, but then again, this would only apply to certain characters whose concepts include them as gun toting on the job. For most all other characters doing the things you describe, I would agree with you completely.

Tony

Nobody ever said the true way of a Warrior was easy, and if a character is
going to go on a SWAT bust, he has to make a decision. Is he willing to
test, live, and possibly die by his art?

-----

Only if he's an utter idiot. There's such a thing as upholding the law. You
can do your job and still be a "Warrior."

-----

/me quietly marks down a -1 point Honor penalty for the Knight...

In a world where the most powerful man alive can kill you with his bare
fists (M. Bison is a Street Fighter, or have we forgotten that?), thinking
you can take five armed men with your bare hands is not beyond the realm of
possibility. Sho Shinjo didn't have too much trouble handling those
fully-armed soldiers at the beginning of Battle Arena Toshinden.

Living a martial way to its fullest requires one to shape his life to the
art. I'm sure those here who study martial arts can attest that many of the
philosophies they've learned in their training shapes who they are as a
person. If you have no faith in your Art, you have no faith in yourself.
When you become a Street Fighter, you enter the ranks of men (and women) who
find that most laws (both natural and man-made) no longer apply to them.
You become special. In simpler terms, not everyone who studies martial
arts, even to mastery, can be considered a Street Fighter. They are a
special breed, one that practices self-reliance and pursuit of perfection
above all.

Of course, if you only feel that a Street Fighter, especially a player
character, is merely a good fighter, then you may disregard the above.

But anyway, as a result, if you are a Street Fighter, you fight with
yourself and yourself alone, and relying on a "common man's tool" is a smack
in the face of the philosophy you supposedly embrace as a Fighter.

-----

There are rules for common sense, and there are rules for the Warrior.

-----

Well, then? Which are you? Are you a "common man", or a Warrior? Do you
think Gouken would teach Fireball to a common man? Or only to one he would
consider disciplined enough to handle such power?

-----

I would say a cop who does that on a bust should be docked Honor for being
so vain as to throw down his gun and jeapordize the group.

-----

Unless his superiors are also Street Fighters, they could never understand
anyway. :p

-----

Likewise, there would be no penalty for a special forces member to carry and
use a gun in military combat. If he were to otherwise try to take out a
bunker of armed soldiers, he would die. Period.

-----

Tell that to the lead character of any Jackie Chan, Jet Li, or anime film.

----

If not, then he had better take
the proper preparations (ballistics vest and M-16) just like his non-Fighter
comrades, and accept the hit on his Honor track, which reflects his
"ranking" in his self-confidence, faith in himself, and outward appearance

----

As I've said above, I don't agree, but then again, this would only apply to
certain characters whose concepts include them as gun toting on the job. For
most all other characters doing the things you describe, I would agree with
you completely.

Tony

-----

Sharon in Street Fighter EX2 Plus carries a pistol and an assault rifle.
Oh, dilemmas...!

Sho Shinjo didn't have too much trouble handling those

> fully-armed soldiers at the beginning of Battle Arena Toshinden.

Don't remember. Made it a point to forget that travesty.

> Of course, if you only feel that a Street Fighter, especially a
> player
> character, is merely a good fighter, then you may disregard the
> above.

I feel that a martial artist would fall under you definition "Street
Fighter/Warrior." I think that a Special Forces character would fall
under part-time soldier/part-time hero for justice. For that character,
use of guns is acceptable when performing the "job" part.

I agree with much of your argument, but I disagree with the
implementation. I like how Andy Johnson interpreted what I was saying (on
the job the street fighter persona disappears and he becomes a normal
person).
I just think that for a special forces character, use of guns is
acceptable and not dishonorable when the situation "merits" it. Just as
duellists can sometimes use weapons and not be considered dishonorable.

As for the anime hero defeating leagues of armed soldiers, no character
in my game would survive that (at least not yet) so obviously we just run
the game a bit different (our characters are hovering around the 100 xp
mark after a year of intense playing).

>
> But anyway, as a result, if you are a Street Fighter, you fight with
> yourself and yourself alone, and relying on a "common man's tool" is
> a smack
> in the face of the philosophy you supposedly embrace as a Fighter.

I suppose so, but I don't force every character to adhere to this "code"
you use. I think most of the characters probably do anyway, but I don't
see Honor as the reflection of soley the "Warrior" part of the person but
of the person as a whole. As long as a character fits to his concept and
doesn't violate the Honor code as written in the game book, I think it's
fine.
(Not that any PCs have used guns in our game.)

I find it funny that Guile has no firearm technique. Therefore, he
wouldn't even know what to do with a gun. I figure that training wouldn't
normally be optional.

I was considering making Sharon, but making the in-game assault rifle
like a Fireball or something. Would it be acceptable if the "weapon" was
merely a special effect and not an actual weapon in the ring? I've been
asking myself this, and aside from it being odd, there would obviously be
nothing wrong with it. It would just need a damn good explanation which I
haven't thought of yet.

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"

Shane's Street Fighter page appears to be down. This page had optional
rules for multiple styles.
Does anyone know if it has a new address, thanks!

Tony

Sho Shinjo didn't have too much trouble handling those

> fully-armed soldiers at the beginning of Battle Arena Toshinden.

Don't remember. Made it a point to forget that travesty.

* Well, we agree on something. Battle Arena Toh Shin Den is the only anime
I've ever seen where I wanted the heroine to put her clothes back *on*.

> Of course, if you only feel that a Street Fighter, especially a
> player
> character, is merely a good fighter, then you may disregard the
> above.

I feel that a martial artist would fall under you definition "Street
Fighter/Warrior." I think that a Special Forces character would fall
under part-time soldier/part-time hero for justice. For that character,
use of guns is acceptable when performing the "job" part.

* Then such a soldier would never be as "honorable" as, say, Ryu or Chun Li.
Or at least he'd have a more difficult time of it and would have to work
extra hard to keep that stigma of gun use from tarnishing his reputation as
a Fighter.

I agree with much of your argument, but I disagree with the
implementation. I like how Andy Johnson interpreted what I was saying (on
the job the street fighter persona disappears and he becomes a normal
person).

* and I would agree likewise, but I believe that in order to truly embrace
the Fighter's spirit, you can't view it as a part-time job. If you want the
full benefits of "rank" (IE, high Honor) you can't go about it like a paper
route.

I just think that for a special forces character, use of guns is
acceptable and not dishonorable when the situation "merits" it. Just as
duellists can sometimes use weapons and not be considered dishonorable.

* I agree that it is possible to use a gun and not incur an honor penalty,
but not in a fight. Not if you're a "real" Street Fighter.

As for the anime hero defeating leagues of armed soldiers, no character
in my game would survive that (at least not yet) so obviously we just run
the game a bit different (our characters are hovering around the 100 xp
mark after a year of intense playing).

* Such an anime hero would have to be good. I don't see a rank 1 jobber
handling a squad of Green Berets on his own. Jackie Chan, on the other
hand, could do it with a butter knife, a piece of string, and a rubber band.

>
> But anyway, as a result, if you are a Street Fighter, you fight with
> yourself and yourself alone, and relying on a "common man's tool" is
> a smack
> in the face of the philosophy you supposedly embrace as a Fighter.

I suppose so, but I don't force every character to adhere to this "code"
you use.

* Me neither. I just dole out Honor as I see fit according to the book.
You act honorably, you get points. You act dishonorably, you lose points.
If you have a good excuse as to why you had to do something, I will probably
agree with you. However, Street Fighters rarely have need for grenades, and
will have to argue pretty hard beyond "I would have died!" to get me to
accept it.

I think most of the characters probably do anyway, but I don't
see Honor as the reflection of soley the "Warrior" part of the person but
of the person as a whole. As long as a character fits to his concept and
doesn't violate the Honor code as written in the game book, I think it's
fine.
(Not that any PCs have used guns in our game.)

* a lot of characters in-game, like in real life, think this way. They may
even have five or six dots themselves, but I don't see them going up to
"Exceptional" (eight or nine) levels without some kind of sacrifice. guns
are not such a sacrifice.

I find it funny that Guile has no firearm technique. Therefore, he
wouldn't even know what to do with a gun. I figure that training wouldn't
normally be optional.

* He probably does know, but abstains in preference of his Sonic Boom. I
know I would. Besides, he's Air Force. How often do pilots need to shoot?

In a message dated 00-08-23 22:08:25 EDT, you write:

<< I find it funny that Guile has no firearm technique. Therefore, he
wouldn't even know what to do with a gun. I figure that training wouldn't
normally be optional.

* He probably does know, but abstains in preference of his Sonic Boom. I
know I would. Besides, he's Air Force. How often do pilots need to shoot?

>>

Not quite. It says in his background he was initially Army Special Forces
("Green Beret"). The Army operates planes too, but I find much of his
background to show a certain ignorance of the military, with his constantly
changing specializations.

As I've said before, sometimes carrying a gun is more honorable than not.
For instance, if Chun Li is facing a mugger with a knife to a woman's throat,
which is more effective, to draw her hands back ready for a fireball and yell
"freeze!", or to draw a handgun and yell "freeze!"? The punk wouldn't know
what the hell she was doing in the first case and ignore her, while he would
respect the gun. Failure to save the life of an innocent docks honor too you
know. And what about Guile flying planes in the airforce. He can engage in
aerial dogfights no problem because taking out enemy planes is something he
can't do with martial arts, but he's still using a gun. Lets invoke the
spirit of the rules and not the letter of the rules when enforcing honor
losses.

I was wondering what people's feelings were on using Lightfeet to gain
extra attacks on things like Tumbling Attack and Turbo Spinning
Clothesline. Has anyone ever said lightfeet couldn't be used with these?
Is it fairly accepted?
The use of it kind of worries me.

Thanks,
Tony

doesn't bother me. Spanish Ninja need all the help they can get. ;)

-----Original Message-----
From: Knight of the Black Rose [mailto:anton_figueroa@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 1:04 AM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: [streetfighter] Lightfeet and Cheese


I was wondering what people's feelings were on using Lightfeet to gain
extra attacks on things like Tumbling Attack and Turbo Spinning
Clothesline. Has anyone ever said lightfeet couldn't be used with these?
Is it fairly accepted?
The use of it kind of worries me.

Thanks,
Tony

where have I ever said that under no circumstances should any fighter ever
be able to brandish a gun in any fashion? I already said that I allowed
characters to use guns *unless* it was used with hostile intent toward
another person. Hostile intent is open to interpretation, but usually I
don't care unless you're shooting to kill.

in neither case would Chun Li be able to fire her projectile of choice
without risk of hitting the victim, so what she points at her suspect would
be irrelevant. And since most characters about to throw fireballs display
some kind of visible sign (glowing hands, crackling Chi, or whathaveyou) I,
as a common thug, would be *more* prone to pants-wetting if someone told me
to stop what I was doing and then her hands began glowing. A gun I can deal
with, but what the hell is she about to do with this magic shit? I'm not
waiting around to find out. Bye.

Aircraft? Okay, now we're getting silly. :p I would not penalize Honor for
an aerial battle, but don't expect to gain any either. Unless you manage to
do something really heroic by blowing up that MiG. Armor combat is
*slightly* different than personal combat. I would not expect the same
rules to apply. Although, launching a Paveway bomb at M. Bison would cost
some dottage, no matter how cool it might be. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: azathoth05@... [mailto:azathoth05@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 11:46 PM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death


As I've said before, sometimes carrying a gun is more honorable than not.
For instance, if Chun Li is facing a mugger with a knife to a woman's
throat,
which is more effective, to draw her hands back ready for a fireball and
yell
"freeze!", or to draw a handgun and yell "freeze!"? The punk wouldn't know
what the hell she was doing in the first case and ignore her, while he would

respect the gun. Failure to save the life of an innocent docks honor too
you
know. And what about Guile flying planes in the airforce. He can engage in

aerial dogfights no problem because taking out enemy planes is something he
can't do with martial arts, but he's still using a gun. Lets invoke the
spirit of the rules and not the letter of the rules when enforcing honor
losses.

I must concur, the only thing that I have ever seen anyone object to is
using lightfeet and musical accompaniement to add hexes of movement to
maneuvers like block, lightning leg, etc, where the move is specified as
none. I and my GM use this going on the none = 0, so none + 2 = 2 theory.
honestly using lightfeet to help multi hitting maneuvers and only for that
is rather stupid, it is much more useful to make a character flexible. I am
WAY more scared of someone using choke throw from 5 hexes away than I am of
taking one extra blockable hit. . . . .

>
>doesn't bother me. Spanish Ninja need all the help they can get. ;)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Knight of the Black Rose [mailto:anton_figueroa@...]
>Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 1:04 AM
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: [streetfighter] Lightfeet and Cheese
>
>
>I was wondering what people's feelings were on using Lightfeet to gain
>extra attacks on things like Tumbling Attack and Turbo Spinning
>Clothesline. Has anyone ever said lightfeet couldn't be used with these?
>Is it fairly accepted?
>The use of it kind of worries me.
>
>Thanks,
>Tony
>
>
>
>
>

I am

> WAY more scared of someone using choke throw from 5 hexes away than
> I am of
> taking one extra blockable hit. . . . .

I'm talking about spending the extra dot of will to get the +3 hex
movement so that something like Turbo spinning clothesline would hit 8
times for someone with an athletics of 5.
Be afraid.
Anyhow, the player in question isn't buying Lightfeet just for that, but
it would be something he'd be capable of.

Tony

Besides, as in real life, weapons training for a martial art usually comes
at the upper echelons of the style's curriculum.
That's entirely false. Every martial art using weapons fluently teaches
their use at the beginning.

Sharon in Street Fighter EX2 Plus carries a pistol and an assault rifle. Oh,
dilemmas...!
What about Doctrin Dark? Rolento?

In a message dated 00-08-25 12:09:44 EDT, you write:

<< Besides, as in real life, weapons training for a martial art usually comes
at the upper echelons of the style's curriculum.
That's entirely false. Every martial art using weapons fluently teaches
their use at the beginning. >>

Well, I was in Ryu Kyu Kempo for awhile, and basically that teaches one
weapon during each summer season. Not necessarily the beginning, but hardly
advanced either. Either way, I think it's stupid to make sweeping
generalizations of any kind. Kenjutsu/Kendo obviously teaches swordsmanship
from the beginning, and pretty much every other style has their own time for
introducing weapons.

yah, but youd make him lose one temporary honour for that right?

>From: Steve Karstensen <skarstensen@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death
>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:49:41 -0400
>
>
>one thing I'd like to clarify is that I won't dock a fighter Honor the
>second he picks up a gun. Using a gun in combat, especially a street
>fight,
>against another opponent who most likely will not be similarly armed, is my
>criteria for firearm honor loss. Sticking a gun up someone's nose and
>offering to clean his sinuses for him most likely won't cost you, but if
>you're jumped by ninja and you go for your gun, you're looking to lose a
>dot.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Hoffmann [mailto:staredown@...]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 12:14 PM
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death
>
>
>--- Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...> wrote:
> > Something may occur soon in the game I'm in when the other storyteller
>is
> > running. We've been trying to decide on what to do and haven't come to
>an
> > agreement.
> >
> > One of the characters was horribly sexually (and almost fatally
> > humiliated/assaulted) after being caught by a Shadoloo operative. (Yes,
> > the other storyteller scares us all.)
> >
> > Anyhow, the special forces character has decided he must kill the
> > perpetrator. He's pretty much enraged. When and if he finally kills the
> > perpetrator, what sort of consequence should there be as far as honor
>and
> > such? The real world consequences aren't that hard to figure out
> > (authorities, upset enemies, etc).
> >
> > If he kills him in combat and not after knocking him out, that could be
> > different than cold-blooded murder, but I don't know what will happen.
> > (Depends if he shoots him while concious or ko'd, he's special forces,
>of
> > course he'll use a gun if he wants to kill - the book says nothing about
> > using guns outside of tournaments - the use of a gun will not be a
>factor
> > in deciding the consequences of this so please don't make that a factor
> > in your advice to me). Since it's not done yet, it's actually yet to be
> > seen how this will happen anyway.
> >
> > Should the character make a roll to see how well he handles it (and
> > account for honor less). Is one permanent honor too much or too little
>to
> > lose?
>
>I'm with Steve on this one (except for gun use automatically costing honor,
>see
>below). Since honor is how the fighting community perceives you, and most
>fighters accept (and embrace) the concept of Vendetta (Chun-Li, Sagat,
>Guile,
>etc.) they'll see her actions as, if not perfectly noble, at least as
>honorable
>and resonable.
>
>And as far as guns go, it depends on how the gun's used. Sniping the
>bastard
>from 3 stories up is dishonorable regardless of what you use to snipe with.
>On
>the other hand if she walks up to the guy, sticks the gun under his nose
>and
>says, "You're a dead man, Ramsey.", then there's no honor loss since the
>guy
>got fair warning and a chance to defend himself. Of course, this would be
>dishonorable in the really real world, but since the guy could catch teh
>bullets if you wanted him to, it still an even fight.
>
>=====
>staredown@... http://members.xoom.com/staredown
>
>"We don't expect kittens to fight wildcats and win
>--we merely expect them to try."
> -- Robert Heinlein
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Actually there are some characters that would use guns, police, detectices,
soldiers.

>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death
>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 15:39:38 -0400
>
>O Using a gun in combat, especially a
> > street fight,
> > against another opponent who most likely will not be similarly
> > armed, is my
> > criteria for firearm honor loss.
>
>Well, being jumped by ninja isn't anywhere near a tournament match or an
>honorable fight.
>
>
> Sticking a gun up someone's nose
> > and
> > offering to clean his sinuses for him most likely won't cost you,
> > but if
> > you're jumped by ninja and you go for your gun, you're looking to
> > lose a
> > dot.
>
>I don't think a character who would carry a gun would lose anything by
>pulling a gun in this situation (one guy surrounded by ninja who are
>probably armed). If it's one guy vs one unarmed ninja, then there's
>possibly some honor loss, but not according to the book/gamescreen.
>Still, I can see some honor penalty (for any gun use) being in keeping
>with the tone of the game (just not the -1 permanent for use in
>tournaments), as long as the enemy isn't similarly armed.
>
>Thanks for the input concerning my original question.
>
>Tony

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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Yah thats like my research on other styles. While looking For dragon style I
found 2 to 4 diffrent types. An extinct style called crab. No info on Snake.
8 diffrent style of Crane. Dozens of offshoots of Tiger.
Its getting to be a real pain.

>From: "Karan" <karan.empyre@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Digest Number 177
>Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:03:48 +0200
>
>1) Majestic Crow Kung Fu - I'm pretty sure that this was made up, but
>given
>the 1500 odd styles of Kung Fu there are, I could easily be wrong.
> The stances used in the pictures, at least, are from Eagle and Immortal
>Bird Styles. My Shaolin friend told me that no Crow style existed, but that
>it sounded pretty "asian old martial arts" for western ears... ^_^!
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

depends on why he was doing it.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Pascuttini <rpascuttini@...>
To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
Date: Friday, August 25, 2000 10:09 PM
Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death

>yah, but youd make him lose one temporary honour for that right?
>
>
>>From: Steve Karstensen <skarstensen@...>
>>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death
>>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:49:41 -0400
>>
>>
>>one thing I'd like to clarify is that I won't dock a fighter Honor the
>>second he picks up a gun. Using a gun in combat, especially a street
>>fight,
>>against another opponent who most likely will not be similarly armed, is

my

>>criteria for firearm honor loss. Sticking a gun up someone's nose and
>>offering to clean his sinuses for him most likely won't cost you, but if
>>you're jumped by ninja and you go for your gun, you're looking to lose a
>>dot.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Chris Hoffmann [mailto:staredown@...]
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 12:14 PM
>>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death
>>
>>
>>--- Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...> wrote:
>> > Something may occur soon in the game I'm in when the other storyteller
>>is
>> > running. We've been trying to decide on what to do and haven't come to
>>an
>> > agreement.
>> >
>> > One of the characters was horribly sexually (and almost fatally
>> > humiliated/assaulted) after being caught by a Shadoloo operative. (Yes,
>> > the other storyteller scares us all.)
>> >
>> > Anyhow, the special forces character has decided he must kill the
>> > perpetrator. He's pretty much enraged. When and if he finally kills the
>> > perpetrator, what sort of consequence should there be as far as honor
>>and
>> > such? The real world consequences aren't that hard to figure out
>> > (authorities, upset enemies, etc).
>> >
>> > If he kills him in combat and not after knocking him out, that could be
>> > different than cold-blooded murder, but I don't know what will happen.
>> > (Depends if he shoots him while concious or ko'd, he's special forces,
>>of
>> > course he'll use a gun if he wants to kill - the book says nothing

about

>> > using guns outside of tournaments - the use of a gun will not be a
>>factor
>> > in deciding the consequences of this so please don't make that a factor
>> > in your advice to me). Since it's not done yet, it's actually yet to be
>> > seen how this will happen anyway.
>> >
>> > Should the character make a roll to see how well he handles it (and
>> > account for honor less). Is one permanent honor too much or too little
>>to
>> > lose?
>>
>>I'm with Steve on this one (except for gun use automatically costing

honor,

>>see
>>below). Since honor is how the fighting community perceives you, and most
>>fighters accept (and embrace) the concept of Vendetta (Chun-Li, Sagat,
>>Guile,
>>etc.) they'll see her actions as, if not perfectly noble, at least as
>>honorable
>>and resonable.
>>
>>And as far as guns go, it depends on how the gun's used. Sniping the
>>bastard
>>from 3 stories up is dishonorable regardless of what you use to snipe

with.

>>On
>>the other hand if she walks up to the guy, sticks the gun under his nose
>>and
>>says, "You're a dead man, Ramsey.", then there's no honor loss since the
>>guy
>>got fair warning and a chance to defend himself. Of course, this would be
>>dishonorable in the really real world, but since the guy could catch teh
>>bullets if you wanted him to, it still an even fight.
>>
>>=====
>>staredown@... http://members.xoom.com/staredown
>>
>>"We don't expect kittens to fight wildcats and win
>>--we merely expect them to try."
>> -- Robert Heinlein
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
>>http://mail.yahoo.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>

Either way, I think it's stupid to make sweeping generalizations of any
kind.
That's what I meant! I wrote too fast...


Yah thats like my research on other styles. While looking For dragon style I
found 2 to 4 diffrent types. An extinct style called crab. No info on Snake.
8 diffrent style of Crane. Dozens of offshoots of Tiger.
Its getting to be a real pain.
This is normal. There are no "schools" of Kung Fu, (oh, excuse me, of
course, there are, in Occident...). There are only old styles, remixed by
new teachers along time, generating different ways of thinking the same
style. Acrobatic, technic, strength-related-, fast, stealthy, precise......
You found no Snake?? That's astonishing!!!

You must remember that moves like Spin. Clothes Line and hurricane Kick and such cost Willpower to perform, and in SF you can only use 1 willpower in one given turn(except on moves costing 2 will of course). So you can't use the +3 move benefit of lightfeet with those maneuvers.

-----Ronin-----


---
Sors salutis et virtutis michi nunc contraria,
est affectus et defectus semper in angaria.
Hac in hora sine mora corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!

"Carmina Burana"

On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:05:19 Knight of the Black Rose wrote:
I am
> WAY more scared of someone using choke throw from 5 hexes away than
> I am of
> taking one extra blockable hit. . . . .

I'm talking about spending the extra dot of will to get the +3 hex
movement so that something like Turbo spinning clothesline would hit 8
times for someone with an athletics of 5.
Be afraid.
Anyhow, the player in question isn't buying Lightfeet just for that, but
it would be something he'd be capable of.

Tony


Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

Try to remember that the honor loss is if someone used a gun in the ring. And not outside the ring..

-----Ronin-----

---
Sors salutis et virtutis michi nunc contraria,
est affectus et defectus semper in angaria.
Hac in hora sine mora corde pulsum tangite;
quod per sortem sternit fortem,
mecum omnes plangite!

"Carmina Burana"

On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 08:41:17 Steve Karstensen wrote:
where have I ever said that under no circumstances should any fighter ever
be able to brandish a gun in any fashion? I already said that I allowed
characters to use guns *unless* it was used with hostile intent toward
another person. Hostile intent is open to interpretation, but usually I
don't care unless you're shooting to kill.

in neither case would Chun Li be able to fire her projectile of choice
without risk of hitting the victim, so what she points at her suspect would
be irrelevant. And since most characters about to throw fireballs display
some kind of visible sign (glowing hands, crackling Chi, or whathaveyou) I,
as a common thug, would be *more* prone to pants-wetting if someone told me
to stop what I was doing and then her hands began glowing. A gun I can deal
with, but what the hell is she about to do with this magic shit? I'm not
waiting around to find out. Bye.

Aircraft? Okay, now we're getting silly. :p I would not penalize Honor for
an aerial battle, but don't expect to gain any either. Unless you manage to
do something really heroic by blowing up that MiG. Armor combat is
*slightly* different than personal combat. I would not expect the same
rules to apply. Although, launching a Paveway bomb at M. Bison would cost
some dottage, no matter how cool it might be. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: azathoth05@... [mailto:azathoth05@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 11:46 PM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Serious question: Death


As I've said before, sometimes carrying a gun is more honorable than not.
For instance, if Chun Li is facing a mugger with a knife to a woman's
throat,
which is more effective, to draw her hands back ready for a fireball and
yell
"freeze!", or to draw a handgun and yell "freeze!"? The punk wouldn't know
what the hell she was doing in the first case and ignore her, while he would

respect the gun. Failure to save the life of an innocent docks honor too
you
know. And what about Guile flying planes in the airforce. He can engage in

aerial dogfights no problem because taking out enemy planes is something he
can't do with martial arts, but he's still using a gun. Lets invoke the
spirit of the rules and not the letter of the rules when enforcing honor
losses.





















Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

First of all, thanks to those who answered my book questions: I really
appreciate it. Soon I'll have ALL the books... MwaHAHAHA!

*ahem*

Back to the question of Honour loss in SF:

First of all one has to think about what the Way of the Warrior is in SF. Is
the loss of Honour situational, or is it applied rigidly irregardless of the
events surrounding it?

Considering that if the character was a samurai thawed out after 400 years
of cryogenisis and was placed in the same situation, Bushido would demand
that he hunt down and kill the mudsucking foreign dog. How would a Special
Forces character be any different?

Does it matter if the character uses a firearm or not? What if he uses
explosives? Or sabotages his car? Would those actions be equally
dishonourable, even though they aren't "in the rules"? What if the character
is disguised as someone else and uses the firearm or some other weapon and
"loses honour"? Does HE lose it or does the character he impersonated lose
it? What if no-one see him kill the badguy? How could his actions be
percieved as dishonourable if no one ever knows about it? What if is
Performance/Acting skill is high enough to fool everyone?

I'd say that the Honour rules as they stand have more to do with what goes
on inside the ring than what goes on outside. In addition, they are really
poorly implimented as far as rules go, and I personally would only use them
regarding what the character does inside the ring, which is much more
important for those kind of mechanics.

Personally I hate games that emphasize "point penalties/bonuses" for certain
types of behaviour. Unless you're a nine year old kid, most gamers are
experienced enough to drop that kind of garbage and focus more on the
character's reputation as it's gamed rather than some stats on a character
sheet.

As for weapons, there is no reason why there can't be variants of the
unarmed maneuvers for weapon use. It isn't really that hard to whip them up,
and certainly the Storyteller can up the PP cost if the power seems too
tough when used with a weapon.

Heck, here's a REAL Honour question: Bob "The OTHER Hammer" Slammer picks a
fight with Mark "Pointy Things" Phillips. Bob says he can beat Mark in a
fight, and wants Mark to use his rapier and main gauche. So, does Mark lose
Honour for using weapons in a fight, even though Bob SPECIFICALLY wants Mark
to use them?

See how situational Honour is?

So, if the Shadaloo agent did something to piss off a Special Forces agent,
then he should expect the agent to show up with guns. Remember that the
character concept is a SOLDIER, and the player MUST stay as true to his
concept as he can. Soldiers use firearms and kill for a living, so as long
as the player sticks to the Uniform Code of Conduct required of soldiers, I
don't see why blowing the Shadaloo scumbag away would bring an Honour loss
unless the Shadaloo agent surrendered and the Special Forces character
simply executed him rather than turn him over to the authorities.

By that token there's no problem "sniping" the Shadaloo agent as that is
perfectly legit. Now I COULD see the character having a crisis of
conscience, but then again I could see him thinking that it's just another
job well done to help protect the country and citizens that he serves.

Were Chun Li to go "Dirty Harry" on Shadaloo's ass, I might imagine that
Honour "could" be lost, but what if it frees a bunch of kidnapped children?
So what if "innocent lives" were put at risk: there's no difference between
using a firearm and using a Fireball. It's simply an issue of "guns are bad"
and "weapons are mostly bad" to help show why Shadaloo agents and other
characters prefer to use martial arts over weapons.

For those who play Cops and use their firearms, there's ALWAYS an inquiry,
and the officer MUST account for EVERY SINGLE ROUND fired. If there are ANY
discrepancies the officer is suspended and forensics goes over the scene and
attempts to figure out what REALLY went down. In either case the character
is "vacationed" for five days before being allowed to return to work, and
must undergo weekly therapy (the reports end up on the captain's and
Internal Affairs' desks). Using a firearm when you are a Cop is a REALLY BIG
DEAL.

So, if the Cop Streetfighter uses a firearm during the course of his job,
does he loose Honour if it was determined that he was justified?

What if the character is a Trapper or Survivalist? Does he lose honour for
using his weapon during the course of his work? What if the character is
trapped in the Amazon and have to use firearms to survive? Do they loose
Honour for that? What about using their Streetfighter techniques on
non-Streetfighters?

I personally would use the Honour and Glory system STRICTLY for Tournaments,
and leave the other stuff to roleplaying. Otherwise the Honour rules would
have a huge list of exceptions and an expanded list of what's dishonourable
and what's not.

That would not be good... ;-)

-Tiger
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

That would be another thing that is open to interpretation, I don't
remember seeing anything like that anywhere, I have used lightfeet with
maneuvers that cost willpower, it depends on GM interpretation, I would be
inclined to allow it.

>You must remember that moves like Spin. Clothes Line and hurricane Kick

and such cost Willpower to perform, and in SF you can only use 1 willpower
in one given turn(except on moves costing 2 will of course). So you can't
use the +3 move benefit of lightfeet with those maneuvers.

>
>-----Ronin-----
>
>
>---
>Sors salutis et virtutis michi nunc contraria,
>est affectus et defectus semper in angaria.
>Hac in hora sine mora corde pulsum tangite;
>quod per sortem sternit fortem,
>mecum omnes plangite!
>
>"Carmina Burana"
>
>On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 19:05:19 Knight of the Black Rose wrote:
>I am
>> WAY more scared of someone using choke throw from 5 hexes away than
>> I am of
>> taking one extra blockable hit. . . . .
>
>I'm talking about spending the extra dot of will to get the +3 hex
>movement so that something like Turbo spinning clothesline would hit 8
>times for someone with an athletics of 5.
>Be afraid.
>Anyhow, the player in question isn't buying Lightfeet just for that, but
>it would be something he'd be capable of.
>
>Tony
>
>
>Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com
>
>

>>As for weapons, there is no reason why there can't be variants of the

unarmed maneuvers for weapon use. It isn't really that hard to whip them up,
and certainly the Storyteller can up the PP cost if the power seems too
tough when used with a weapon.

Shameless plug here: You'll find those types of Maneuvers and many more in
the downloadable Encyclopedia Combatica. It also includes every move from
the Street Fighter Books.

http://www.tsixroads.com/~joespitt/dogsofwar.htm

J. Scott Pittman
www.dragonslayergames.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Rogue Tiger <roguetiger@...>
To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 2:29 AM
Subject: [streetfighter] Honour Loss and Weapons Use and Killing


> First of all, thanks to those who answered my book questions: I really
> appreciate it. Soon I'll have ALL the books... MwaHAHAHA!
>
> *ahem*
>
> Back to the question of Honour loss in SF:
>
> First of all one has to think about what the Way of the Warrior is in SF.
Is
> the loss of Honour situational, or is it applied rigidly irregardless of
the
> events surrounding it?
>
> Considering that if the character was a samurai thawed out after 400 years
> of cryogenisis and was placed in the same situation, Bushido would demand
> that he hunt down and kill the mudsucking foreign dog. How would a Special
> Forces character be any different?
>
> Does it matter if the character uses a firearm or not? What if he uses
> explosives? Or sabotages his car? Would those actions be equally
> dishonourable, even though they aren't "in the rules"? What if the
character
> is disguised as someone else and uses the firearm or some other weapon and
> "loses honour"? Does HE lose it or does the character he impersonated lose
> it? What if no-one see him kill the badguy? How could his actions be
> percieved as dishonourable if no one ever knows about it? What if is
> Performance/Acting skill is high enough to fool everyone?
>
> I'd say that the Honour rules as they stand have more to do with what goes
> on inside the ring than what goes on outside. In addition, they are really
> poorly implimented as far as rules go, and I personally would only use
them
> regarding what the character does inside the ring, which is much more
> important for those kind of mechanics.
>
> Personally I hate games that emphasize "point penalties/bonuses" for
certain
> types of behaviour. Unless you're a nine year old kid, most gamers are
> experienced enough to drop that kind of garbage and focus more on the
> character's reputation as it's gamed rather than some stats on a character
> sheet.
>
> As for weapons, there is no reason why there can't be variants of the
> unarmed maneuvers for weapon use. It isn't really that hard to whip them
up,
> and certainly the Storyteller can up the PP cost if the power seems too
> tough when used with a weapon.
>
> Heck, here's a REAL Honour question: Bob "The OTHER Hammer" Slammer picks
a
> fight with Mark "Pointy Things" Phillips. Bob says he can beat Mark in a
> fight, and wants Mark to use his rapier and main gauche. So, does Mark
lose
> Honour for using weapons in a fight, even though Bob SPECIFICALLY wants
Mark
> to use them?
>
> See how situational Honour is?
>
> So, if the Shadaloo agent did something to piss off a Special Forces
agent,
> then he should expect the agent to show up with guns. Remember that the
> character concept is a SOLDIER, and the player MUST stay as true to his
> concept as he can. Soldiers use firearms and kill for a living, so as long
> as the player sticks to the Uniform Code of Conduct required of soldiers,
I
> don't see why blowing the Shadaloo scumbag away would bring an Honour loss
> unless the Shadaloo agent surrendered and the Special Forces character
> simply executed him rather than turn him over to the authorities.
>
> By that token there's no problem "sniping" the Shadaloo agent as that is
> perfectly legit. Now I COULD see the character having a crisis of
> conscience, but then again I could see him thinking that it's just another
> job well done to help protect the country and citizens that he serves.
>
> Were Chun Li to go "Dirty Harry" on Shadaloo's ass, I might imagine that
> Honour "could" be lost, but what if it frees a bunch of kidnapped
children?
> So what if "innocent lives" were put at risk: there's no difference
between
> using a firearm and using a Fireball. It's simply an issue of "guns are
bad"
> and "weapons are mostly bad" to help show why Shadaloo agents and other
> characters prefer to use martial arts over weapons.
>
> For those who play Cops and use their firearms, there's ALWAYS an inquiry,
> and the officer MUST account for EVERY SINGLE ROUND fired. If there are
ANY
> discrepancies the officer is suspended and forensics goes over the scene
and
> attempts to figure out what REALLY went down. In either case the character
> is "vacationed" for five days before being allowed to return to work, and
> must undergo weekly therapy (the reports end up on the captain's and
> Internal Affairs' desks). Using a firearm when you are a Cop is a REALLY
BIG
> DEAL.
>
> So, if the Cop Streetfighter uses a firearm during the course of his job,
> does he loose Honour if it was determined that he was justified?
>
> What if the character is a Trapper or Survivalist? Does he lose honour for
> using his weapon during the course of his work? What if the character is
> trapped in the Amazon and have to use firearms to survive? Do they loose
> Honour for that? What about using their Streetfighter techniques on
> non-Streetfighters?
>
> I personally would use the Honour and Glory system STRICTLY for
Tournaments,
> and leave the other stuff to roleplaying. Otherwise the Honour rules would
> have a huge list of exceptions and an expanded list of what's
dishonourable
> and what's not.
>
> That would not be good... ;-)
>
> -Tiger
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>

On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:06:42 -0700 "Ronny Anderssen"
<cybermage@...> writes:

> You must remember that moves like Spin. Clothes Line and hurricane

Kick and such cost Willpower to perform, and in SF you can only use 1
willpower in one given turn(except on moves costing 2 will of course).
So you can't use the +3 move benefit of lightfeet with those maneuvers.

>

Is that the concensus on this list? I've heard several list members talk
about doing just that so I thus wondered.

Tony

How could his actions be

>
> percieved as dishonourable if no one ever knows about it?

"Honor" in SF doesn't depend on the knowledge of others. It's purely an
internal measure of the characters concience/righteousness, something
like that. It's purely a boon to those who are honorable/good.

Surely, if someone is impersonated as being dishonorable, they could be
dishonored (lose face), but the "Honor" stat in SF isn't a measure of
that.

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"

> You must remember that moves like Spin. Clothes Line and hurricane
> Kick and such cost Willpower to perform, and in SF you can only use 1
> willpower in one given turn(except on moves costing 2 will of course).
> So you can't use the +3 move benefit of lightfeet with those maneuvers.
> >
>
> Is that the concensus on this list? I've heard several list members talk
> about doing just that so I thus wondered.

He is correct - only the +1 movement allowed would be legal, because you
don't have to spend willpower to gain it.

J. Scott Pittman
www.dragonslayergames.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Lightfeet and Cheese


> On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:06:42 -0700 "Ronny Anderssen"
> <cybermage@...> writes:
> > You must remember that moves like Spin. Clothes Line and hurricane
> Kick and such cost Willpower to perform, and in SF you can only use 1
> willpower in one given turn(except on moves costing 2 will of course).
> So you can't use the +3 move benefit of lightfeet with those maneuvers.
> >
>
> Is that the concensus on this list? I've heard several list members talk
> about doing just that so I thus wondered.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>

> He is correct - only the +1 movement allowed would be legal, because
> you
> don't have to spend willpower to gain it.

Wow. The answer now seems like it was so simple. Now, I just have to
crush my player's heart by telling him this. Well, at least I don't have
to worry about him imbalancing the game more than he normally does (his
luck on die rolls is supernaturally good).

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"

On Sun, 27 Aug 2000 14:25:01 -0400 brian fish <fishbn@...>
writes:

> That would be another thing that is open to interpretation, I don't

remember seeing anything like that anywhere, I have used lightfeet with
maneuvers that cost willpower, it depends on GM interpretation, I would
be inclined to allow it.

Page 64 of the main book states that rule. I looked it up because I
thought it was too good to be true. So, the only possibly style that
could do such a cheesy thing as to gain many more extra attacks with
another move would be Ninjitsu with speed of mongoose and cartwheel kick
(fortunately, I will just have cartwheel kick not exist in my chronicle).

Tony

no, the consensus I recall is to allow any number of willpower or chi to be
spent since the book offers conflicting examples on how much in the way of
disposables can be spent.

(take my word for it this time. I don't feel like digging up obscure rules
again.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Knight of the Black Rose [mailto:anton_figueroa@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 2:43 AM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Lightfeet and Cheese


On Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:06:42 -0700 "Ronny Anderssen"
<cybermage@...> writes:

> You must remember that moves like Spin. Clothes Line and hurricane

Kick and such cost Willpower to perform, and in SF you can only use 1
willpower in one given turn(except on moves costing 2 will of course).
So you can't use the +3 move benefit of lightfeet with those maneuvers.

>

Is that the concensus on this list? I've heard several list members talk
about doing just that so I thus wondered.

Tony

> no, the consensus I recall is to allow any number of willpower or chi to be spent since the book offers conflicting examples on how much in the way of disposables can be spent.

----

OK, thanks. I rather like the rule as presented so I'm going to go with the last idea I heard then for my chronicle (only do 1 willpower using thing per turn) to prevent such things as using Lightfeet's +3 with "Attack per hex of movement" maneuvers. It's our house rule to allow 1 will to be spent for soak or success in addition to paying the price of a maneuver so that will be the only exception.

----

>(take my word for it this time. I don't feel like digging up obscure rules again.)

----

OK, but I'm curious what the other examples are. Maybe I'll look myself. Then again, I'm satisfied by my current decision.

Thanks for everyone's responses,
Tony

"OK, but I'm curious what the other examples are. Maybe I'll look myself.
Then again, I'm satisfied by my current decision."

well, without going to the book I can say right off the bat that as you've
said, "you can only spend one Willpower per turn". So that means no one
will ever be able to use Great Wall of China, which costs two Willpower to
perform.

and anyone who says "well obviously there are exceptions", has just proven
my argument from the "Honorable Fighters use Guns" thread, and I can die a
happy man. ;)