I've always said that the character has to lose all permanent dots *and*
temporary honor points in order to be "lost", as it were, and be removed
from play. Any character who has any temporary points and continues to make
an effort to keep from bottoming out can keep going.

Cyborgs are the exception to the rule. However, they must actively strive
to gain Honor or risk being booted as normal.

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Diemert [mailto:boomergold@...]
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 3:20 PM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor



--- Cayr Desanea <cayr@...> wrote:

> Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I
> was told that if I lost it
> all, I would lose the character because he would go
> insane.

Whoever told you that a character who loses all Honor
becomes insane, probably was. It merely means that
the character has forsaken the Path of Honor
completely, and belives that the end justifies the
means. But what happens when someone who has "lost
all Honor" realizes it, and strives to become
Honorable again? While Vega is insane, and Bison a
cruel, merciless megalomaniac, Balrog merely lost
faith in "playing by the rules", and Sagat became
obsessed with revenge. What would happen if Balrog or
Sagat were to start "playing fair"? That's something
not covered in the rules. This bears further
though... Anyone?

Josh

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Being I do believe, one of the game masters in question, I'll give you my
views on the thing. Basically, a character with 1 point of permanent, or
even into as little as one point of temp honor is still capable of
forsaking their dishonorable ways, but once a player character hits 0 honor
(no permanent, no temp) they are so dishonorable and set in their ways that
they cannot redeem themselves. It is now something permanently a part of
their character concept. Also, in the street fighter system, white wolf
seems to be emphasizing that the player characters are to be the "good
guys" while the NPC's are to be the "bad guys", as black and white as you
would find in say. . . . .a video game or something (I wonder where they
got THAT idea from LOL). Basically if a character starts with 0 honor, they
are building up, but it is VERY easy to succumb to temptation, while if a
character goes down to 0 honor, they have become dirty and one of the "bad
guys".

>Whoever told you that a character who loses all Honor
>becomes insane, probably was. It merely means that
>the character has forsaken the Path of Honor
>completely, and belives that the end justifies the
>means. But what happens when someone who has "lost
>all Honor" realizes it, and strives to become
>Honorable again? While Vega is insane, and Bison a
>cruel, merciless megalomaniac, Balrog merely lost
>faith in "playing by the rules", and Sagat became
>obsessed with revenge. What would happen if Balrog or
>Sagat were to start "playing fair"? That's something
>not covered in the rules. This bears further
>though... Anyone?
>
>Josh
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail ­ Free email you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>

Hey, hey, hey... You must not forget the golden rule. If some of the rules don't suit you, change them...


-----Ronin-----


--

On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:57:47 Steve Karstensen wrote:
you want a page reference? fine. I'll produce one tonight when I get home
from work.

-----Original Message-----
From: Knight of the Black Rose [mailto:anton_figueroa@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 11:35 PM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor


On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:26:02 -0400 "Steve Karstensen"
<skarsten@...> writes:
> I'm afraid it IS true. it's in the main rulebook, and I think it's
> repeated
> in the player's guide.

Without a page reference, I can't beleive you. The section on character
creation and Honor in the main book has it pretty clear cut. Such a thing
would be utterly ridiculous. Besides if it's in the Player's Guide well,
the comment "What were they smoking when they wrote it" kind of applies
to the whole book anyway.

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"








Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

> obsessed with revenge. What would happen if Balrog or
> Sagat were to start "playing fair"? That's something
> not covered in the rules. This bears further
> though... Anyone?

I think it would take a pretty big event to make one of them turn to the
Side of Good. Such a thing would make for an interesting story.

I really kind of think one would have to "voluntarily" throw away the
"Path of Honor" to truly become evil. Same for turning good. I suppose
one of the badguys could start playing fair and gain honor, but there's
such a thing as Honorable evil.

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"

O, but once a player character hits

> 0 honor> (no permanent, no temp) they are so dishonorable and set in

their > ways that> they cannot redeem themselves. It is now something
permanently a > part of> their character concept.

I think that's too extreme. What if you start with 0 honor, do something
good and gain a point, then hit someone when they're dizzy (whether or
not it was for the greater good)? I don't think it would be impossible
for redemption (even if you drop from 10 permanent honor). I think that
if at any point a character loses 10 temporary honor though that he/she
would need to redeem himself in some fashion simply from the guilt (if
they were good). My character would probably start questioning herself if
she ever lost more than 2 points of temporary honor.
The drawback to playing a dark/nasty character would be that you simply
won't be getting your points back in times of need due to no honor. The
guilt from losing honor would ONLY affect a GOOD character, therefore, I
don't see how a character with 0 honor would no longer be playable.
Either you're plain evil, fresh/new, or guilt-ridden. In any case, I
don't think current honor is a measure of a person. How much you've
gained or lost is the real important part. Anyhow, that's how I see it
based on the rules presented in the book (and playing angst-ridden
tournament fighters would kind of be in the White Wolf theme).
Ugh, the storyteller I share the game with recently introduced too much
World of Darkness in SF.

I'd recently been thinking how interesting it would be to play my
character if she horribly dishonored herself (what the guilt would do,
what would be needed for redemption, etc.).

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"

I suppose

>one of the badguys could start playing fair and gain honor, but there's
>such a thing as Honorable evil.
>
>Knight of the Black Rose

yes, and one of the best examples i can think of is your name sake, Lord
Soth. he was a VERY evil man, but he still followed a (twisted) version of
the rules of solamnia. he was evil AND honorable.


Luck? Its just a roll of the dice...
Jynx

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

What? but thats not true. You can actually create a character in the
begining with all his reknown under honour or glory. So you can actually
start a character with no honour.

>From: "Steve Karstensen" <skarsten@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:02:10 -0400
>
>your GM is half right.
>
>a character who is reduced to Zero Honor (exceptions usually made for
>cyborgs) will be removed from play and becomes an NPC. this does not
>happen
>because of "insanity", merely a representation of his being ostracized from
>"honorable" fighting society. the other players, if they have any Honor at
>all, will refuse to associate with the honorless one.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cayr Desanea <cayr@...>
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 10:41 AM
>Subject: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>
>
>Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I was told that if I lost
>it
>all, I would lose the character because he would go insane. I think this is
>a bit much, I mean, just because he has no honor doesn't mean he's psycho,
>it just means he's ruthless.
>
>Regarding Willpower and Honor...
>
>I read on this thread that people gained 1 WP and 1 Chi back from rest. I
>think that's a pretty good idea, especially for us 1 honor guys, although I
>seem to make my honor rolls often.
>
>C
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Meditating. Thats easy just get the rules for meditation in the
Werewolf system. They apply perfectly.

>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:31:30 -0400
>
>and I've been toying with the idea of a
> > Chi
> > equivilent to Natures. If your feeling creative you could try
> > writing
> > alternatives to Honor
>
>We're trying to organize and come to an agreement on rules for Meditating
>to regain Chi in our game.
>
>Knight of the Black Rose
>"Absolute Destiny Tango"

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Thats pretty good. I can accept that. :)

>From: "Karan" <karan.empyre@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Digest Number 167
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:57:11 +0200
>
>It is written precisely :
>"one character might give 2 pts to Hnor and one to Glory, while another
>might give three points to Glory and none to Honor".
>
>As for the basic grab, it is indeed a Grab that is neither a sustained hold
>nor does it cause a knockdown. In my martial arts experience, I would think
>of it as being a lock. A quick tortion af a limb, quicly released. Blocks
>do
>not work against it, because precisely it grabs your blocking arms to hurt
>it! �And in that way, it IS really the basis of the more advanced grabs!
>Doesn't it make sense?
>
>
>Karan, occasional hard-thinker...
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Not really. Once they start playing by the rules they simply gain and lose
honour as per normal. Why would anything have to change.

>From: Josh Diemert <boomergold@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>--- Cayr Desanea <cayr@...> wrote:
> > Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I
> > was told that if I lost it
> > all, I would lose the character because he would go
> > insane.
>
>Whoever told you that a character who loses all Honor
>becomes insane, probably was. It merely means that
>the character has forsaken the Path of Honor
>completely, and belives that the end justifies the
>means. But what happens when someone who has "lost
>all Honor" realizes it, and strives to become
>Honorable again? While Vega is insane, and Bison a
>cruel, merciless megalomaniac, Balrog merely lost
>faith in "playing by the rules", and Sagat became
>obsessed with revenge. What would happen if Balrog or
>Sagat were to start "playing fair"? That's something
>not covered in the rules. This bears further
>though... Anyone?
>
>Josh
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Interesting

but I beleive you should leave the matter of it being a character concept as
part GM part Player responsiblitly. You should talk with the player and get
his view on it. When characters are made its between the Gm and Player.

As for a person being set in his way, A part of life is change.
Are you saying he will never change? Some of the greatest stories and
characters come from badguys becoming good guys or Good guys becoming bad
then good again.
Or even those characters who never go all the way.

>Being I do believe, one of the game masters in question, I'll give you my
>views on the thing. Basically, a character with 1 point of permanent, or
>even into as little as one point of temp honor is still capable of
>forsaking their dishonorable ways, but once a player character hits 0 honor
>(no permanent, no temp) they are so dishonorable and set in their ways that
>they cannot redeem themselves. It is now something permanently a part of
>their character concept. Also, in the street fighter system, white wolf
>seems to be emphasizing that the player characters are to be the "good
>guys" while the NPC's are to be the "bad guys", as black and white as you
>would find in say. . . . .a video game or something (I wonder where they
>got THAT idea from LOL). Basically if a character starts with 0 honor, they
>are building up, but it is VERY easy to succumb to temptation, while if a
>character goes down to 0 honor, they have become dirty and one of the "bad
>guys".
>
> >Whoever told you that a character who loses all Honor
> >becomes insane, probably was. It merely means that
> >the character has forsaken the Path of Honor
> >completely, and belives that the end justifies the
> >means. But what happens when someone who has "lost
> >all Honor" realizes it, and strives to become
> >Honorable again? While Vega is insane, and Bison a
> >cruel, merciless megalomaniac, Balrog merely lost
> >faith in "playing by the rules", and Sagat became
> >obsessed with revenge. What would happen if Balrog or
> >Sagat were to start "playing fair"? That's something
> >not covered in the rules. This bears further
> >though... Anyone?
> >
> >Josh
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere!
> >http://mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> >
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Ok I got a project for you guys. I beleive I figured it out.
Lets see your opinions and Ill give you mine plus a little story to go with
it.

What is Evil?
What is your definition of Evil?
How do you identify it?

>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:40:19 -0400
>
> > obsessed with revenge. What would happen if Balrog or
> > Sagat were to start "playing fair"? That's something
> > not covered in the rules. This bears further
> > though... Anyone?
>
>I think it would take a pretty big event to make one of them turn to the
>Side of Good. Such a thing would make for an interesting story.
>
>I really kind of think one would have to "voluntarily" throw away the
>"Path of Honor" to truly become evil. Same for turning good. I suppose
>one of the badguys could start playing fair and gain honor, but there's
>such a thing as Honorable evil.
>
>Knight of the Black Rose
>"Absolute Destiny Tango"

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Or even Dr. Doom from marvel comics.

>From: "Bill Stagge" <jynxboy316@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 23:32:41 EDT
>
>I suppose
> >one of the badguys could start playing fair and gain honor, but there's
> >such a thing as Honorable evil.
> >
> >Knight of the Black Rose
>
>yes, and one of the best examples i can think of is your name sake, Lord
>Soth. he was a VERY evil man, but he still followed a (twisted) version of
>the rules of solamnia. he was evil AND honorable.
>
>
>Luck? Its just a roll of the dice...
>Jynx
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:58:47 EDT "Robert Pascuttini"
<rpascuttini@...> writes:

> Ok I got a project for you guys. I beleive I figured it out.
> Lets see your opinions and Ill give you mine plus a little story to
> go with
> it.
>
> What is Evil?
> What is your definition of Evil?
> How do you identify it?

Hmm... pretty deep for Street Fighter.
The evil people are the people who work for the bad guys (Shadoloo). The
good guys are the people who fight the bad guys. Going deeper may be too
philosophical.
Really, I believe true/primal evil is that which causes suffering for the
sake of suffering, but there are many levels of evil, such as not caring
about others and causing suffering to meet other ends.

Knight of the Black Rose
"Absolute Destiny Tango"

Hey Pat.
Power points are the cost for a move to be purchased by a certain style.

Exp: Dragon Punch
Prerequisites: The Stats you need to be able to do this move.
Power Points: Shotokan Karate 4, Kung Fu 5


A player who makes a shototkaner can purchase the move for 4 power points of
his starting 7, and a Kung Fu stylist can purchase it for 5.

If your looking for the book Im sure someone here can find it for you.
where do you live.

>From: "Patrick Sawyer" <resawyer@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: [streetfighter] What are Power Points?
>Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 01:40:20 -0000
>
>Okay, I'm kind a new to the Street Fighter role playing game, I don't
>even have the book! But I manage somehow to get most of the rules
>from
>reading a lot of the past messages and stuff like that! Yes I do have
>that much time to spend to pass 8000 messages :) But one question
>remainds: In the maneuver list what is Power Points? You have a
>martial art and a number what does that mean? What are Power
>Points? What do they do and how do you get them? Since the RPG is no
>longer produced I don't see why it would matter if someone told me.
>
>Thanks,
>
>From what I red of the rule this system would go well for a Dragon
>Ball RPG or my friends wrestling RPG, I like it!
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>Or even Dr. Doom from marvel comics.
> >yes, and one of the best examples i can think of is your name sake, Lord
> >Soth. he was a VERY evil man, but he still followed a (twisted) version
>of
> >the rules of solamnia. he was evil AND honorable.
> >
> >
> >Luck? Its just a roll of the dice...
> >Jynx
> >

or howabout the Klingon's from star trek? in the original series, they were
the epitome of evil (they WERE modeled after the russians in the cold war,
BTW). but, they hold honor highest of all things...


Luck? Its just a roll of the dice...
Jynx

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

I said *reduced to* zero. Meaning, he had it and lost it, which represents
the choices he's made during the course of the Chronicle. Obviously
beginning characters are a little different.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Pascuttini [mailto:rpascuttini@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 12:40 AM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor


What? but thats not true. You can actually create a character in the
begining with all his reknown under honour or glory. So you can actually
start a character with no honour.

>From: "Steve Karstensen" <skarsten@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:02:10 -0400
>
>your GM is half right.
>
>a character who is reduced to Zero Honor (exceptions usually made for
>cyborgs) will be removed from play and becomes an NPC. this does not
>happen
>because of "insanity", merely a representation of his being ostracized from
>"honorable" fighting society. the other players, if they have any Honor at
>all, will refuse to associate with the honorless one.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Cayr Desanea <cayr@...>
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 10:41 AM
>Subject: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>
>
>Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I was told that if I lost
>it
>all, I would lose the character because he would go insane. I think this is
>a bit much, I mean, just because he has no honor doesn't mean he's psycho,
>it just means he's ruthless.
>
>Regarding Willpower and Honor...
>
>I read on this thread that people gained 1 WP and 1 Chi back from rest. I
>think that's a pretty good idea, especially for us 1 honor guys, although I
>seem to make my honor rolls often.
>
>C
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Secrets of Shadoloo
Page 42, column 2, paragraph 1 under heading "Theon Pendant":

"JUST AS IN REGULAR PLAY, If a player's character's permanent and temporary
Honor both go below zero, the character is immediately taken out of play.
The character can only be used by the Storyteller as a villain from that
point onward."

Now if you wanna argue that the character would only become a villain
because of the Pendant's evil influences, I'd say great, except for that
first part about "Regular play" which kinda infers that characters becoming
villains at zero Honor is the norm. However, I am hard-pressed to find any
further clarification of the matter in the main rulebook. As always if you
don't like the rule throw it out, but in the future kindly don't call me a
liar if I tell you something is printed in one of the books. I know this
material like the back of my hand, thank you very much.

*grumbles and goes back to sleep*

Stephen Karstensen
Applications Consultant
Concurrent Technologies
(908)604-6100 x216

...and that's the bottom line, 'cuz:
response.write "IRINA SAID SO" & "<BR>"

In a message dated 8/15/00 12:01:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
rpascuttini@... writes:

> What is Evil?

Evil is when someone does something that will cause harm to others for a
selfish reason.

> What is your definition of Evil?

Evil... is subjective.

> How do you identify it?

Once it grows to a certain point it's not hard. Before that, identifying
evil is a trick that has eluded many men far wiser than I.

What would happen if Balrog or Sagat were to start "playing fair"?

Are you serious? Hey! Sagat is the most loyal revenger I ever knew! He
refuses to take victory if Ryu is not in a position to fight fully prepared!
Isn't that Honor?



as black and white as you would find in say. . . . .a video game or
something (I wonder where they got THAT idea from LOL).

cos' you really think that Ryu is a GOOD fighter?? striving to find the
power of the real fighter, even if it leads him to become a Gouki-like
monster?


What is Evil? What is your definition of Evil? How do you identify it?

I'm pretty sure that many people are going to answer this by the classical
"everyone has a different sense of ethic". It's not totally true. most of us
think of the same events as being evil.
Evil is greed, cruelty and unuseful harshness. Lying is slightly bad,
hitting an innocent child is evil, killing somebody (good or bad guy) in the
real life is also bad (even if bad US movies would have us think that
killing somebody is trivial, it is not!!). Raping, torturing, forcing
children to do some immoral things, forcing somebody to become addicted to
any substance, all of this is evil. Organizing mass-scaled killings (like
genocides of any type), selling people to other people, intentionally
generating suffering for anyone, is evil. Gaining big money by making
profits on the suffering, hunger, hope of others, too.
I think I run around the subject, my vision of Evil! But, obviously, it is
often hard to discernate True Evil from Wrath, Folly, Unconsciousness,
Stupidity, or Mind Laziness...

In a message dated 8/15/00 7:59:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
skarstensen@... writes:

> However, I am hard-pressed to find any
> further clarification of the matter in the main rulebook.

*sighs*

We need someone to go through these books line-by-line and look for the
rules, because WW didn't seem to care when they were writing the game.

"Soon, the Paths shall stand revealed."

Arkon, Dark Lord of Chaos; Keeper of Mysteries; Circuit Folklorist; Seeker of
the Lost Paths

Guys, guys! You're all missing the point, here.

There is only One True Evil, and its coming has heralded the beginning of
the Apocalyse.

Yes my friends, I am talking about...

Barney.

Well, and the Teletubbies, to a lesser extent. But I think they're just
confused.

-----Original Message-----
From: Karan [mailto:karan.empyre@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 9:06 AM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: [streetfighter] Evil-ness... ^_^!


What would happen if Balrog or Sagat were to start "playing fair"?

Are you serious? Hey! Sagat is the most loyal revenger I ever knew!
He
refuses to take victory if Ryu is not in a position to fight fully prepared!
Isn't that Honor?



as black and white as you would find in say. . . . .a video game or
something (I wonder where they got THAT idea from LOL).

cos' you really think that Ryu is a GOOD fighter?? striving to find
the
power of the real fighter, even if it leads him to become a Gouki-like
monster?


What is Evil? What is your definition of Evil? How do you identify it?

I'm pretty sure that many people are going to answer this by the
classical
"everyone has a different sense of ethic". It's not totally true. most of us
think of the same events as being evil.
Evil is greed, cruelty and unuseful harshness. Lying is slightly
bad,
hitting an innocent child is evil, killing somebody (good or bad guy) in the
real life is also bad (even if bad US movies would have us think that
killing somebody is trivial, it is not!!). Raping, torturing, forcing
children to do some immoral things, forcing somebody to become addicted to
any substance, all of this is evil. Organizing mass-scaled killings (like
genocides of any type), selling people to other people, intentionally
generating suffering for anyone, is evil. Gaining big money by making
profits on the suffering, hunger, hope of others, too.
I think I run around the subject, my vision of Evil! But,
obviously, it is
often hard to discernate True Evil from Wrath, Folly, Unconsciousness,
Stupidity, or Mind Laziness...

Steve I think your thinking of Star Wars. not SF.

>From: "Steve Karstensen" <skarsten@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:26:02 -0400
>
>I'm afraid it IS true. it's in the main rulebook, and I think it's
>repeated
>in the player's guide.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Date: Sunday, August 13, 2000 2:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>
>
> >On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:02:10 -0400 "Steve Karstensen"
> ><skarsten@...> writes:
> >> your GM is half right.
> >>
> >> a character who is reduced to Zero Honor (exceptions usually made for
> >cyborgs) will be removed from play and becomes an NPC.
> >
> >No, this is not true. This is not said anywhere in the game.
> >What is said contradicts the existence of such rules.
> >A character can even start with zero honor. Simply, the character with no
> >honor has no inner peace to make Honor rolls and will not be known for
> >having Honor (if people know of the fighter at all according to his
> >glory).
> >
> >Also, Honor can never drop below zero.
> >
> >However, a character with no honor may very well be ostracized from the
> >fighting community by honorable fighters if he is known for dishonorable
> >acts.
> >Essentially (this is what the game implies): A zero glory zero honor
> >character stepping into the ring will be completely unknown - if the
> >character is a starting character who has not fought before. He has zero
> >honor simply because he has not yet done enough good deeds, not because
> >he is dishonorable.
> >Raw honor should never be the measure of a character. The dishonorable or
> >honorable deeds known to many through his glory and how much Honor he may
> >have lost or gained should be the measure.
> >
> >Knight of the Black Rose
> >"Absolute Destiny Tango"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

No, I just have a tendency to think of Secrets of Shadoloo as an expansion
to the core rulebook, seeing as how it's essential to the game n' all. (my
bad, I suppose) If you noticed, I gave reference to the passage I drew that
inference from.

Although yes, characters who fall to the Dark Side are immediately removed
from play in Star Wars 2nd Ed.

HOWEVER, there *is* a section in that rulebook for playing characters who
fall from grace and then gain redemption (as has been discussed here for
Street Fighter) so playing a character with no Honor who is actively
striving to redeem himself is, with Storyteller approval, just fine. I
never said it wasn't. I was just concurring to the fact that within the
Street Fighter rulebooks there is mention of a zero-honor character being
removed from play. No more, no less. Whether anyone choosed to agree with
and use that rule is out of my control. Rather good thing, too. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Pascuttini [mailto:rpascuttini@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 12:43 AM
To: streetfighter@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor


Steve I think your thinking of Star Wars. not SF.

>From: "Steve Karstensen" <skarsten@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:26:02 -0400
>
>I'm afraid it IS true. it's in the main rulebook, and I think it's
>repeated
>in the player's guide.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
>Date: Sunday, August 13, 2000 2:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>
>
> >On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:02:10 -0400 "Steve Karstensen"
> ><skarsten@...> writes:
> >> your GM is half right.
> >>
> >> a character who is reduced to Zero Honor (exceptions usually made for
> >cyborgs) will be removed from play and becomes an NPC.
> >
> >No, this is not true. This is not said anywhere in the game.
> >What is said contradicts the existence of such rules.
> >A character can even start with zero honor. Simply, the character with no
> >honor has no inner peace to make Honor rolls and will not be known for
> >having Honor (if people know of the fighter at all according to his
> >glory).
> >
> >Also, Honor can never drop below zero.
> >
> >However, a character with no honor may very well be ostracized from the
> >fighting community by honorable fighters if he is known for dishonorable
> >acts.
> >Essentially (this is what the game implies): A zero glory zero honor
> >character stepping into the ring will be completely unknown - if the
> >character is a starting character who has not fought before. He has zero
> >honor simply because he has not yet done enough good deeds, not because
> >he is dishonorable.
> >Raw honor should never be the measure of a character. The dishonorable or
> >honorable deeds known to many through his glory and how much Honor he may
> >have lost or gained should be the measure.
> >
> >Knight of the Black Rose
> >"Absolute Destiny Tango"
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>However, I am hard-pressed to find any further clarification of the matter in the main rulebook. As always if you don't like the rule throw it out, but in the future kindly don't call me a

liar if I tell you something is printed in one of the books

I said you were wrong, not quite the same as calling you a liar. I didn't do it out of lack of respect; I honestly could find no such rule in the main book. I've read it, and I really don't think it's there.
That section of Secrets of Shadoloo seems to show an inconsistency with the rest of the game, but that sort of stuff happens. The line from the main book which reads, "can never have negative honor," seems to imply such a rule was not originally planned for the game.

Thanks for finding it and pointing it out. Yeah, I think I would only apply it for the amulet of Theon (and toss the "regular play" line under "what were they smoking").
I think that "as in regular play comment" may be similar to crouching block (reference to something that never existed). Maybe that part of the book was written by someone else who thought the rule existed. Maybe it was a poorly placed "update."

Of course, I'll bet that a player who acted so dishonorably as to gain negative honor would probably have done a lot of stuff in game play to deserve being removed from play, ostracization by the other players, etc. If they actually decide to join the badguys/Shadoloo, many storytellers would probably then add the character to the NPC ranks.

Tony
--
Knight of the Black Rose

Actually, my favorite thing about Ryu, have you ever looked at his combos?
Short to Short to Short (Dizzy), but yeah, he's an HONORABLE fighter LOL.
And Actually I have never found Sagat to be himself inherently evil, he
wants to avenge a loss to Ryu, while Balrog is selfish to an extreme and
ruthless. The only two outright evil characters in street fighter are Bison
and Vega.

Another thing about evil in street fighter, and games like that, have you
ever noticed all the evil characters laugh when they do damage? Bison,
Vega, Hyo from Rival schools. . . . .note this isn't the same as laughing
AFTER one does damage as is the case with most of the fighters. . . . .

Maby barny is the antichrist and the teletubbies are
the horseman of the apocalypse

Cliff

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Thanks! I never thought I'd have so much replies. I don't think I'll
be able to buy a book, I live in Quebec, I'v tried asking people is
RPG shops and stuff like that but most people don't even know about
the Street Fighter RPG, thanks anyway.

With this cleard up I can game master a session. Thought I still need
to finish some reading of some messages on Glory and Honor.

Thanks again

> What is Evil?

Dungeons and Dragons THIRD Edition.. heh.
No, I'd say evil is any action taken that will harm in a physical, mental
or spiritual way, including one's self, when that action is taken without
the intent of the action's outcome causing less harm to come about.

> What is your definition of Evil?

My ex-wife pops into mind. (Seriously, isn't this just like question #1? If
I answered any diffrently than in question #1 here, I would have two
diffrent definitions of evil)

> How do you identify it?

If you can trace a destructive action back to a selfish motivation, it is
evil.
(oooh I like that. Copyright 2000, joespitt, lol)

Scott
www.dragonslayergames.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <arkondloc@...>
To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor


> In a message dated 8/15/00 12:01:44 AM Central Daylight Time,
> rpascuttini@... writes:
>
> > What is Evil?
>
> Evil is when someone does something that will cause harm to others for a
> selfish reason.
>
> > What is your definition of Evil?
>
> Evil... is subjective.
>
> > How do you identify it?
>
> Once it grows to a certain point it's not hard. Before that, identifying
> evil is a trick that has eluded many men far wiser than I.
>
>
>
>
>

What about Akuma (Gouki)?

>From: brian fish <fishbn@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Evil-ness... ^_^!
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:30:46 -0400
>
>Actually, my favorite thing about Ryu, have you ever looked at his combos?
>Short to Short to Short (Dizzy), but yeah, he's an HONORABLE fighter LOL.
>And Actually I have never found Sagat to be himself inherently evil, he
>wants to avenge a loss to Ryu, while Balrog is selfish to an extreme and
>ruthless. The only two outright evil characters in street fighter are Bison
>and Vega.
>
>Another thing about evil in street fighter, and games like that, have you
>ever noticed all the evil characters laugh when they do damage? Bison,
>Vega, Hyo from Rival schools. . . . .note this isn't the same as laughing
>AFTER one does damage as is the case with most of the fighters. . . . .
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

What about rules for good vs. evil? Have stats for each, just like honr and
glory, and if EITHER one fills completely the character is lost (goes insane
or reuses to fight any longer)?

>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:49:01 -0400
>
>On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 14:41:25 GMT "Cayr Desanea" <cayr@...>
>writes:
> > Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I was told that if I
> > lost it
> > all, I would lose the character because he would go insane.
>
>That's stupid. Whoever said that obviously misunderstands that element.
>Honor is like the extra righteous fighting spirit that the good guys have
>to help them get back after they've spent themselves (i.e. honor rolls).
>Not having any would just mean, well, you don't have any.
>
>Knight of the Black Rose
>"Absolute Destiny Tango"

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Actualy, there are rules, Storyteller rules, for just that sort of thing.
You can find them in my rules download on my street fighter page. It's under
the section for Heart and Darkness.

http://www.tsixroads.com/~joespitt/dogsofwar.htm

J. Scott Pittman
www.dragonslayergames.com

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Vernatter <devernatter@...>
To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor


> What about rules for good vs. evil? Have stats for each, just like honr
and
> glory, and if EITHER one fills completely the character is lost (goes
insane
> or reuses to fight any longer)?
>
>
> >From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
> >Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
> >Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:49:01 -0400
> >
> >On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 14:41:25 GMT "Cayr Desanea" <cayr@...>
> >writes:
> > > Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I was told that if I
> > > lost it
> > > all, I would lose the character because he would go insane.
> >
> >That's stupid. Whoever said that obviously misunderstands that element.
> >Honor is like the extra righteous fighting spirit that the good guys have
> >to help them get back after they've spent themselves (i.e. honor rolls).
> >Not having any would just mean, well, you don't have any.
> >
> >Knight of the Black Rose
> >"Absolute Destiny Tango"
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

What are your ideas? I've never played any WoD games. The whole thing
kinda turns me off. So I really don't know what the Werewolf rules for
meditation are. Can anyone let me know? You can send it directly to my
address if you don't want to clog up the whole groups messages.

>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:31:30 -0400
>
>and I've been toying with the idea of a
> > Chi
> > equivilent to Natures. If your feeling creative you could try
> > writing
> > alternatives to Honor
>
>We're trying to organize and come to an agreement on rules for Meditating
>to regain Chi in our game.
>
>Knight of the Black Rose
>"Absolute Destiny Tango"

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Someone mention Dr. Doom? Sorry, but that's my favorite comic character of
all time.

Top ten reasons Doom is the best:

1) Contained the infinite power of the Beyonder within a mortal frame and
kept the universe intact through his sheer strength of will and mental
disipline.
2) Stole the power cosmic and rode the silver board
3) Has more time travel violations than Captain Kirk (yes, it's true!)
4) Never does things half-way-when his face was only slightly scarred he put
on the white hot facemask so that his ENTIRE FACE would be scarred.
5) Took over the world, only to relinguish control when he got bored because
there wasn't enough resistance to his rule. (see Emperor Doom)
6) Master of many disiplines-science, magic, and the martial arts (see doom
#1 currently on sale, where he kills a lion with his bare hands while naked!)
Also, in Doom 2099 when his armor was destroyed and he was hunted, he killed
the Shield squad that came after him WITH A SHOTGUN! Hail to the king, baby!
7) Took over Earth 2(see current issues of doom and recent fantastic four
stuff)
8) Came in second place and only other winner in the sorcerer supreme contest
(see Triumph and Torment)using his magical prowess and beat Mephisto in his
own realm at his own game, simaltaneously freeing his mother's soul and
repaying his debt to Dr. Strange (Doom owes a debt to NO MAN!)
9) Is the hero of almost every alternate history marvel has ever written
(Mutant X, What if Inferno, I believe Avengers Forever even depicted him as
an avenger in one alternate universe). It seems only the mainstream marvel
universe thinks he's a villain
10) Most quotable character of all time: "Pain? Pain is like love,,, like
compassion! It is a thing only for lesser men. What is pain to Doom?"
(Doom, Triumph and Torment)

I'm going to do something similar to this when I adapt Star Was to
Storyteller for the Light and Dark sides of the Force.

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Vernatter <devernatter@...>
To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 7:39 PM
Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor

>What about rules for good vs. evil? Have stats for each, just like honr

and

>glory, and if EITHER one fills completely the character is lost (goes

insane

>or reuses to fight any longer)?
>
>
>>From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
>>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>>Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:49:01 -0400
>>
>>On Sat, 12 Aug 2000 14:41:25 GMT "Cayr Desanea" <cayr@...>
>>writes:
>> > Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I was told that if I
>> > lost it
>> > all, I would lose the character because he would go insane.
>>
>>That's stupid. Whoever said that obviously misunderstands that element.
>>Honor is like the extra righteous fighting spirit that the good guys have
>>to help them get back after they've spent themselves (i.e. honor rolls).
>>Not having any would just mean, well, you don't have any.
>>
>>Knight of the Black Rose
>>"Absolute Destiny Tango"
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

Are we talking great villians? Doom is WAY up there, but my list, in order,
are:

1. Darth Vader (did you expect anyone else?)
2. Megatron, from The original Transformers Cartoon
3. The Joker
4. The Borg, before they added that dumb thing about the hive queens
5. Beloq (from Indiana Jones) - he was so perfect as an arch enemy!*

and I have to make a special mention for Mojo Jojo, The frenchmen from Monty
Python's Search for the Holy Grail, Ming the Merciless from the Flash Gordon
Movie, the Alien Queen (from Aliens), Maximillian (remember him from The
Black Hole?), and Two Face (whom I think would be an INCREDIBLE character if
only someone would write him the right way)

there's lots more, but those are the ones I thought of tonight

Scott

Ok but whats not to say the characters begining story involves him trying to
regain lost honour.

"Ok. My character was good and followed the way but then was dazzled by all
the glamour and started to do things for glory and began commiting
dishonorable actions. He was then ostracizied by.his master. He now trys to
return to his former actions."

>From: Steve Karstensen <skarstensen@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:46:40 -0400
>
>
>I said *reduced to* zero. Meaning, he had it and lost it, which represents
>the choices he's made during the course of the Chronicle. Obviously
>beginning characters are a little different.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Pascuttini [mailto:rpascuttini@...]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 12:40 AM
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>
>
>What? but thats not true. You can actually create a character in the
>begining with all his reknown under honour or glory. So you can actually
>start a character with no honour.
>
>
> >From: "Steve Karstensen" <skarsten@...>
> >Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
> >Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:02:10 -0400
> >
> >your GM is half right.
> >
> >a character who is reduced to Zero Honor (exceptions usually made for
> >cyborgs) will be removed from play and becomes an NPC. this does not
> >happen
> >because of "insanity", merely a representation of his being ostracized
>from
> >"honorable" fighting society. the other players, if they have any Honor
>at
> >all, will refuse to associate with the honorless one.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Cayr Desanea <cayr@...>
> >To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
> >Date: Saturday, August 12, 2000 10:41 AM
> >Subject: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
> >
> >
> >Having recently began a character with 1 honor, I was told that if I lost
> >it
> >all, I would lose the character because he would go insane. I think this
>is
> >a bit much, I mean, just because he has no honor doesn't mean he's
>psycho,
> >it just means he's ruthless.
> >
> >Regarding Willpower and Honor...
> >
> >I read on this thread that people gained 1 WP and 1 Chi back from rest. I
> >think that's a pretty good idea, especially for us 1 honor guys, although
>I
> >seem to make my honor rolls often.
> >
> >C
> >________________________________________________________________________
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>

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Ok but unfortunatly that statement has no begining. No where does it say in
normal play that you become a villain. Ok. Im gonna contact white wolf.
about this.

>From: Steve Karstensen <skarstensen@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: [streetfighter] Chapter and Verse
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:56:50 -0400
>
>
>Secrets of Shadoloo
>Page 42, column 2, paragraph 1 under heading "Theon Pendant":
>
>"JUST AS IN REGULAR PLAY, If a player's character's permanent and temporary
>Honor both go below zero, the character is immediately taken out of play.
>The character can only be used by the Storyteller as a villain from that
>point onward."
>
>Now if you wanna argue that the character would only become a villain
>because of the Pendant's evil influences, I'd say great, except for that
>first part about "Regular play" which kinda infers that characters becoming
>villains at zero Honor is the norm. However, I am hard-pressed to find any
>further clarification of the matter in the main rulebook. As always if you
>don't like the rule throw it out, but in the future kindly don't call me a
>liar if I tell you something is printed in one of the books. I know this
>material like the back of my hand, thank you very much.
>
>*grumbles and goes back to sleep*
>
>Stephen Karstensen
>Applications Consultant
>Concurrent Technologies
>(908)604-6100 x216
>
>...and that's the bottom line, 'cuz:
>response.write "IRINA SAID SO" & "<BR>"

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I wrote my comments after each section.

> Are you serious? Hey! Sagat is the most loyal revenger I ever knew! He
>refuses to take victory if Ryu is not in a position to fight fully
>prepared!
>Isn't that Honor?

Actually it is. Thst represents the 1 point of honour he has.

>as black and white as you would find in say. . . . .a video game or
>something (I wonder where they got THAT idea from LOL).
>
> cos' you really think that Ryu is a GOOD fighter?? striving to find the
>power of the real fighter, even if it leads him to become a Gouki-like
>monster?

Hmm actually the thing that make ryu a good fighter isnt just that he
wants to be a good fighter. Its how he does it as well.
The Path is more important than the Goal.

>What is Evil? What is your definition of Evil? How do you identify it?
>
> I'm pretty sure that many people are going to answer this by the classical
>"everyone has a different sense of ethic". It's not totally true. most of
>us
>think of the same events as being evil.
> Evil is greed, cruelty and unuseful harshness. Lying is slightly bad,
>hitting an innocent child is evil, killing somebody (good or bad guy) in
>the
>real life is also bad (even if bad US movies would have us think that
>killing somebody is trivial, it is not!!). Raping, torturing, forcing
>children to do some immoral things, forcing somebody to become addicted to
>any substance, all of this is evil. Organizing mass-scaled killings (like
>genocides of any type), selling people to other people, intentionally
>generating suffering for anyone, is evil. Gaining big money by making
>profits on the suffering, hunger, hope of others, too.
> I think I run around the subject, my vision of Evil! But, obviously, it
>is
>often hard to discernate True Evil from Wrath, Folly, Unconsciousness,
>Stupidity, or Mind Laziness...
>

I'll answer this one later.
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Ok ah disregard my last letter then.
hrm It might be a bit late.

>From: Steve Karstensen <skarstensen@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:54:32 -0400
>
>
>No, I just have a tendency to think of Secrets of Shadoloo as an expansion
>to the core rulebook, seeing as how it's essential to the game n' all. (my
>bad, I suppose) If you noticed, I gave reference to the passage I drew
>that
>inference from.
>
>Although yes, characters who fall to the Dark Side are immediately removed
>from play in Star Wars 2nd Ed.
>
>HOWEVER, there *is* a section in that rulebook for playing characters who
>fall from grace and then gain redemption (as has been discussed here for
>Street Fighter) so playing a character with no Honor who is actively
>striving to redeem himself is, with Storyteller approval, just fine. I
>never said it wasn't. I was just concurring to the fact that within the
>Street Fighter rulebooks there is mention of a zero-honor character being
>removed from play. No more, no less. Whether anyone choosed to agree with
>and use that rule is out of my control. Rather good thing, too. :)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert Pascuttini [mailto:rpascuttini@...]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 12:43 AM
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>
>
>Steve I think your thinking of Star Wars. not SF.
>
>
> >From: "Steve Karstensen" <skarsten@...>
> >Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >To: <streetfighter@egroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
> >Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:26:02 -0400
> >
> >I'm afraid it IS true. it's in the main rulebook, and I think it's
> >repeated
> >in the player's guide.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
> >To: streetfighter@egroups.com <streetfighter@egroups.com>
> >Date: Sunday, August 13, 2000 2:07 PM
> >Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
> >
> >
> > >On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 13:02:10 -0400 "Steve Karstensen"
> > ><skarsten@...> writes:
> > >> your GM is half right.
> > >>
> > >> a character who is reduced to Zero Honor (exceptions usually made for
> > >cyborgs) will be removed from play and becomes an NPC.
> > >
> > >No, this is not true. This is not said anywhere in the game.
> > >What is said contradicts the existence of such rules.
> > >A character can even start with zero honor. Simply, the character with
>no
> > >honor has no inner peace to make Honor rolls and will not be known for
> > >having Honor (if people know of the fighter at all according to his
> > >glory).
> > >
> > >Also, Honor can never drop below zero.
> > >
> > >However, a character with no honor may very well be ostracized from the
> > >fighting community by honorable fighters if he is known for
>dishonorable
> > >acts.
> > >Essentially (this is what the game implies): A zero glory zero honor
> > >character stepping into the ring will be completely unknown - if the
> > >character is a starting character who has not fought before. He has
>zero
> > >honor simply because he has not yet done enough good deeds, not because
> > >he is dishonorable.
> > >Raw honor should never be the measure of a character. The dishonorable
>or
> > >honorable deeds known to many through his glory and how much Honor he
>may
> > >have lost or gained should be the measure.
> > >
> > >Knight of the Black Rose
> > >"Absolute Destiny Tango"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>________________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>

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Hey Pat you live in Quebec? Ok no prob. I'll tell you what. I live in
Ontario and I know quite a few places that sell it. I also happen to work at
Fedex. Ill pick the books up for you and Send them hows that?

>From: "Patrick Sawyer" <resawyer@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: [streetfighter] Re: What are Power Points?
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:28:30 -0000
>
>Thanks! I never thought I'd have so much replies. I don't think I'll
>be able to buy a book, I live in Quebec, I'v tried asking people is
>RPG shops and stuff like that but most people don't even know about
>the Street Fighter RPG, thanks anyway.
>
>With this cleard up I can game master a session. Thought I still need
>to finish some reading of some messages on Glory and Honor.
>
>Thanks again
>

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Yah sure Ill write it in my next letter. It really is a good way of doing
it. Plus, (my thinking here)you dont even have to have the skill meditation.
Just use the Focus score. Ta Daa!

>From: "Don Vernatter" <devernatter@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 19:44:15 EDT
>
>What are your ideas? I've never played any WoD games. The whole thing
>kinda turns me off. So I really don't know what the Werewolf rules for
>meditation are. Can anyone let me know? You can send it directly to my
>address if you don't want to clog up the whole groups messages.
>
>
> >From: Knight of the Black Rose <anton_figueroa@...>
> >Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >To: streetfighter@egroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Here's a poser on Honor
> >Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:31:30 -0400
> >
> >and I've been toying with the idea of a
> > > Chi
> > > equivilent to Natures. If your feeling creative you could try
> > > writing
> > > alternatives to Honor
> >
> >We're trying to organize and come to an agreement on rules for Meditating
> >to regain Chi in our game.
> >
> >Knight of the Black Rose
> >"Absolute Destiny Tango"
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

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AZ. That was incredible!

My brother wanted to add a few as well so we might as well make it a top 12.

11)Attained the power cosic from silver surfer and returned it to him after
causes it was of no use to him.

12)Took out the avengers Time and Time and Time again. (My bro says if you
want to see titles look at every comic where Dr.Doom is in an Avengers
comic.)

Ahh one more
13)In secret wars he talked to galactus as though he was underneath him.

Im guessing there'll be some arguments here but not sure.

>From: azathoth05@...
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Doom is the ultimate villian
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 22:50:00 EDT
>
>Someone mention Dr. Doom? Sorry, but that's my favorite comic character of
>all time.
>
>Top ten reasons Doom is the best:
>
>1) Contained the infinite power of the Beyonder within a mortal frame and
>kept the universe intact through his sheer strength of will and mental
>disipline.
>2) Stole the power cosmic and rode the silver board
>3) Has more time travel violations than Captain Kirk (yes, it's true!)
>4) Never does things half-way-when his face was only slightly scarred he
>put
>on the white hot facemask so that his ENTIRE FACE would be scarred.
>5) Took over the world, only to relinguish control when he got bored
>because
>there wasn't enough resistance to his rule. (see Emperor Doom)
>6) Master of many disiplines-science, magic, and the martial arts (see doom
>#1 currently on sale, where he kills a lion with his bare hands while
>naked!)
> Also, in Doom 2099 when his armor was destroyed and he was hunted, he
>killed
>the Shield squad that came after him WITH A SHOTGUN! Hail to the king,
>baby!
>7) Took over Earth 2(see current issues of doom and recent fantastic four
>stuff)
>8) Came in second place and only other winner in the sorcerer supreme
>contest
>(see Triumph and Torment)using his magical prowess and beat Mephisto in his
>own realm at his own game, simaltaneously freeing his mother's soul and
>repaying his debt to Dr. Strange (Doom owes a debt to NO MAN!)
>9) Is the hero of almost every alternate history marvel has ever written
>(Mutant X, What if Inferno, I believe Avengers Forever even depicted him as
>an avenger in one alternate universe). It seems only the mainstream marvel
>universe thinks he's a villain
>10) Most quotable character of all time: "Pain? Pain is like love,,, like
>compassion! It is a thing only for lesser men. What is pain to Doom?"
>(Doom, Triumph and Torment)
>
>
>

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Hey Patrick,

I'm From Calgary, and i managed to locate the only copy I've seen in a
tramps. Just happened to visit it though and saw it sitting there. I'm sure
if you look around online you can find someone who will sell you a copy. I
lucked out and all the maps and cut outs were still intact.

best of luck
-Carl Destro Myradon

>From: "Patrick Sawyer" <resawyer@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: [streetfighter] Re: What are Power Points?
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:28:30 -0000
>
>Thanks! I never thought I'd have so much replies. I don't think I'll
>be able to buy a book, I live in Quebec, I'v tried asking people is
>RPG shops and stuff like that but most people don't even know about
>the Street Fighter RPG, thanks anyway.
>
>With this cleard up I can game master a session. Thought I still need
>to finish some reading of some messages on Glory and Honor.
>
>Thanks again
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

hm, good point. . . . .that seems to screw up THAT theory. . . .

>What about Akuma (Gouki)?
>
>
>>From: brian fish <fishbn@...>
>>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] Evil-ness... ^_^!
>>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:30:46 -0400
>>
>>Actually, my favorite thing about Ryu, have you ever looked at his combos?
>>Short to Short to Short (Dizzy), but yeah, he's an HONORABLE fighter LOL.
>>And Actually I have never found Sagat to be himself inherently evil, he
>>wants to avenge a loss to Ryu, while Balrog is selfish to an extreme and
>>ruthless. The only two outright evil characters in street fighter are Bison
>>and Vega.
>>
>>Another thing about evil in street fighter, and games like that, have you
>>ever noticed all the evil characters laugh when they do damage? Bison,
>>Vega, Hyo from Rival schools. . . . .note this isn't the same as laughing
>>AFTER one does damage as is the case with most of the fighters. . . . .
>>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>
>

Oh come on, you can't be serious, Beloq on the top 5? he didn't even make
it through the first movie. on the other hand. . . . .

1. Dr Doom (come on, after that last email? he's a shoo in)
2. Raoh from Fist of the North Star (come on now, he won, how often does
THAT happen?)
3. Ra's Al Ghul (spelling?) As far as I can tell, the guy is effectively
immortal, and half the time gets the better of Batman. . . . .
4. Kurgan ok, this guy IS immortal, and as he was one of the last two
immortals on the planet, he AT LEAST deserves consideration. . . . .
5. M. Bison come on, this IS the street fighter mailing list, and not to
mention the fact that he does happen to rule his own country, and anyone
quoted as "you have no choice, you will obey ME!!" is a BAD ASS!!!

>Are we talking great villians? Doom is WAY up there, but my list, in order,
>are:
>
>1. Darth Vader (did you expect anyone else?)
>2. Megatron, from The original Transformers Cartoon
>3. The Joker
>4. The Borg, before they added that dumb thing about the hive queens
>5. Beloq (from Indiana Jones) - he was so perfect as an arch enemy!*
>
>and I have to make a special mention for Mojo Jojo, The frenchmen from Monty
>Python's Search for the Holy Grail, Ming the Merciless from the Flash Gordon
>Movie, the Alien Queen (from Aliens), Maximillian (remember him from The
>Black Hole?), and Two Face (whom I think would be an INCREDIBLE character if
>only someone would write him the right way)
>
>there's lots more, but those are the ones I thought of tonight
>
>Scott
>

Um, can we say crouching block all over again? although I don't use the
crouching block, I do use the rule of honor dropping to 0, I find that it
helps contain the thugs, or at least make them consider their actions (and
isn't that pretty much all ANYONE can do with thugs?)

>Ok but unfortunatly that statement has no begining. No where does it say in
>normal play that you become a villain. Ok. Im gonna contact white wolf.
>about this.
>
>
>>From: Steve Karstensen <skarstensen@...>
>>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>>Subject: [streetfighter] Chapter and Verse
>>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 08:56:50 -0400
>>
>>
>>Secrets of Shadoloo
>>Page 42, column 2, paragraph 1 under heading "Theon Pendant":
>>
>>"JUST AS IN REGULAR PLAY, If a player's character's permanent and temporary
>>Honor both go below zero, the character is immediately taken out of play.
>>The character can only be used by the Storyteller as a villain from that
>>point onward."
>>
>>Now if you wanna argue that the character would only become a villain
>>because of the Pendant's evil influences, I'd say great, except for that
>>first part about "Regular play" which kinda infers that characters becoming
>>villains at zero Honor is the norm. However, I am hard-pressed to find any
>>further clarification of the matter in the main rulebook. As always if you
>>don't like the rule throw it out, but in the future kindly don't call me a
>>liar if I tell you something is printed in one of the books. I know this
>>material like the back of my hand, thank you very much.
>>
>>*grumbles and goes back to sleep*
>>
>>Stephen Karstensen
>>Applications Consultant
>>Concurrent Technologies
>>(908)604-6100 x216
>>
>>...and that's the bottom line, 'cuz:
>>response.write "IRINA SAID SO" & "<BR>"
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

</lurk>

Heyas. I've been lurking for a while. Two things:

Honor and Glory

I personally don't see it as being horribly important that your character
NOT let his Honor or Glory drop below a certain point. The reason is that
the mechanics as they are written (Main Rulebook) more than suffice if the
GM is willing to actually game the effects of the stats on the real world.

For example, unless your character works for Shadaloo, odds are his Mentor
(or NPC he seeks out for training...) isn't going to teach him any maneuvers
worth having unless he's proven that he's honorable (i.e.: has enough
Permanent Honor) and/or that he's a worthy fighter (i.e.: has enough
Permanent Glory).

Perhaps the character doesn't get invited to private "non-sanctioned"
tournaments. What about those nosy reporters writing those nasty stories
about what a jerk your character is? Your character's girlfriend could dump
him for some obnoxious video store clerk... Your pet chews up your patent
leather furniture... The IRS investigates you because they've heard rumours
that you aren't always on the up and up... reputation DOES mean something,
right? ;-)

As I see it, the whole "toss the character out" concept is unecessarily
arbitrary.

As for being percieved as honorable it should be more a reflection of the
character's Honor vs. his Rank. A 0 Honor Rank 1 fighter wouldn't
necessarily be viewed as dishonorable as he would be considered unproven. A
1 Honor Rank 6 fighter would be an experienced fighter who must have
deliberately performed dishonorable acts and would most likely be looked at
with disdain by his peers (who would have noticibly higher Honor) even
though the Rank 6 fighter is technically more honorable than the Rank 1
fighter. It's all relative. =)

Still, if the GM says you're now a badguy if you cause your Honor/Glory to
frop to 0 you always have the option of simply not playing. Start your own
chronicle and play it how you want. Or simply accept it and marginalize its
impact on your character. Or propose an alternative: a character who is
higher than Rank 1 who drops to 0 Honor/Glory becomes an NPC villain.
There's no real reason to go all rules-lawyery for one small facet of the
game. Just be prepared for the consequences, that's all.

BOOKS

I've been looking for SF Gamebooks for ages. Does anyone have any
suggestions as to how I would go about getting them? I live in Canada, and
I've tried everywhere from Golden Age Collectibles in BC to the Warhouse in
Cali... Don't forget: it's -1 Honor for ignoring someone in need of help.
;-P

BTW, is Perfect Warrior worth going after? What's in it? Is it just an
adventure or is there actually anything interesting in it?

-Tiger
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Are you kidding? The teletubbies ARE the epitome of evil. Little demons
really. BTW, has anyone seen the demonic teletubbies in the Stone Temple
Pilots video "Sour Girl"? ;)
(went to their concert a few weeks ago, it rocked!!)

>From: Steve Karstensen <skarstensen@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: RE: [streetfighter] Evil-ness... ^_^!
>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:11:01 -0400
>
>
>Guys, guys! You're all missing the point, here.
>
>There is only One True Evil, and its coming has heralded the beginning of
>the Apocalyse.
>
>Yes my friends, I am talking about...
>
>Barney.
>
>Well, and the Teletubbies, to a lesser extent. But I think they're just
>confused.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Karan [mailto:karan.empyre@...]
>Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 9:06 AM
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: [streetfighter] Evil-ness... ^_^!
>
>
>What would happen if Balrog or Sagat were to start "playing fair"?
>
> Are you serious? Hey! Sagat is the most loyal revenger I ever knew!
>He
>refuses to take victory if Ryu is not in a position to fight fully
>prepared!
>Isn't that Honor?
>
>
>
>as black and white as you would find in say. . . . .a video game or
>something (I wonder where they got THAT idea from LOL).
>
> cos' you really think that Ryu is a GOOD fighter?? striving to find
>the
>power of the real fighter, even if it leads him to become a Gouki-like
>monster?
>
>
>What is Evil? What is your definition of Evil? How do you identify it?
>
> I'm pretty sure that many people are going to answer this by the
>classical
>"everyone has a different sense of ethic". It's not totally true. most of
>us
>think of the same events as being evil.
> Evil is greed, cruelty and unuseful harshness. Lying is slightly
>bad,
>hitting an innocent child is evil, killing somebody (good or bad guy) in
>the
>real life is also bad (even if bad US movies would have us think that
>killing somebody is trivial, it is not!!). Raping, torturing, forcing
>children to do some immoral things, forcing somebody to become addicted to
>any substance, all of this is evil. Organizing mass-scaled killings (like
>genocides of any type), selling people to other people, intentionally
>generating suffering for anyone, is evil. Gaining big money by making
>profits on the suffering, hunger, hope of others, too.
> I think I run around the subject, my vision of Evil! But,
>obviously, it is
>often hard to discernate True Evil from Wrath, Folly, Unconsciousness,
>Stupidity, or Mind Laziness...
>
>
>
>
>

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Perfect Warrior is an adventure, and I think it's worth it. the Sentry Box
in Calgary has most of the books, save the main rule book. If you want the
number, send me an e-mail at myradon@... and I'll get it to you.

main book, no advice :p
-CDm

>From: "Rogue Tiger" <roguetiger@...>
>Reply-To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>To: streetfighter@egroups.com
>Subject: [streetfighter] Honour and Streetfighter Books
>Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:43:03 GMT
>
></lurk>
>
>Heyas. I've been lurking for a while. Two things:
>
>Honor and Glory
>
>I personally don't see it as being horribly important that your character
>NOT let his Honor or Glory drop below a certain point. The reason is that
>the mechanics as they are written (Main Rulebook) more than suffice if the
>GM is willing to actually game the effects of the stats on the real world.
>
>For example, unless your character works for Shadaloo, odds are his Mentor
>(or NPC he seeks out for training...) isn't going to teach him any
>maneuvers
>worth having unless he's proven that he's honorable (i.e.: has enough
>Permanent Honor) and/or that he's a worthy fighter (i.e.: has enough
>Permanent Glory).
>
>Perhaps the character doesn't get invited to private "non-sanctioned"
>tournaments. What about those nosy reporters writing those nasty stories
>about what a jerk your character is? Your character's girlfriend could dump
>him for some obnoxious video store clerk... Your pet chews up your patent
>leather furniture... The IRS investigates you because they've heard rumours
>that you aren't always on the up and up... reputation DOES mean something,
>right? ;-)
>
>As I see it, the whole "toss the character out" concept is unecessarily
>arbitrary.
>
>As for being percieved as honorable it should be more a reflection of the
>character's Honor vs. his Rank. A 0 Honor Rank 1 fighter wouldn't
>necessarily be viewed as dishonorable as he would be considered unproven. A
>1 Honor Rank 6 fighter would be an experienced fighter who must have
>deliberately performed dishonorable acts and would most likely be looked at
>with disdain by his peers (who would have noticibly higher Honor) even
>though the Rank 6 fighter is technically more honorable than the Rank 1
>fighter. It's all relative. =)
>
>Still, if the GM says you're now a badguy if you cause your Honor/Glory to
>frop to 0 you always have the option of simply not playing. Start your own
>chronicle and play it how you want. Or simply accept it and marginalize its
>impact on your character. Or propose an alternative: a character who is
>higher than Rank 1 who drops to 0 Honor/Glory becomes an NPC villain.
>There's no real reason to go all rules-lawyery for one small facet of the
>game. Just be prepared for the consequences, that's all.
>
>BOOKS
>
>I've been looking for SF Gamebooks for ages. Does anyone have any
>suggestions as to how I would go about getting them? I live in Canada, and
>I've tried everywhere from Golden Age Collectibles in BC to the Warhouse in
>Cali... Don't forget: it's -1 Honor for ignoring someone in need of help.
>;-P
>
>BTW, is Perfect Warrior worth going after? What's in it? Is it just an
>adventure or is there actually anything interesting in it?
>
>-Tiger
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

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