This list is for the fans of the Street Fighter Storyteller game by White Wolf. The game is no longer in print but there are fans of the game that are still out there.

Hi to those who have already signed up.

So is this a better idea? Or would you prefer to go back to the old
address book system?

This is also basically a test.

Thanks,

CMM


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I like this method... keeps the list consistent and people SHOULD
(hopefully) be able to change their data and remove themselves if they
want fairly easily, without everyone updating their personal address
books. Too bad there's not an auto-reply-to feature that I can see to
send replies back to the list.

H.



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NOTE: Posting to old list and new one as well. Blah.

Nelson, Christopher T wrote:

> By the way, can anyone come up with a good rationale for disallowing
> Aborts to Blocking Special Maneuvers (Punch Defense, et al)? I've

> > been
> > trying to find one for ages, but the best I can do is that since
> > they're
> > "special" blocks you can't just fling one up as a last-ditch effort to
> > save your ass, unlike a reg. block or a Jump, but then by that
> > reasoning
> > I should allow you to Abort to a Move, too...
> >
> You don't allow aborting to movement? So how do you get
> away from grapplers? ???
> I dunno, we've always played defaults like really basic
> instinctive defensive maneuvers...
> You know, like an instant reaction to something. So,
> as such, you could go to a block (or basic move) easily,
> but anything more complex than that would be out
> of the question, as it is something you would have to
> 'plan' for. IE, a punch-defense assumes that you are planning
> on your opponent throwing a punch at you, while aborting
> to a defense implies that your opponent surprised you in some way...

Nah, abort to Move isn't specifically allowed; abort to Jump is, making Jump
a pretty necessary maneuver for survival. Also, you can get away from
grapplers with moves like the jab... enemy moves into your hex, you take a
step back and pop him, he's out of luck. This works out really well in
play, as a sustained hold from a stong grappler is a fight-ender, and he
WILL eventually get it off.

Oh, and since an interrupt happns at any point during a turn, the key is
timing. For instance, someone moves in two hexes with a flying tackle , so
you move to the side and jab BEFORE they enter your hex... whoops, he moves
into the hex after you pop him for one point and slams you. However, if
you time it so that he goes to grab you in your hex and THEN step back and
jab, you're in good shape.

It may seem unfair to grapplers, but consider the alternative: without this
rule, grapplers cannot be stopped, and anyone with a flying tackle is
UNBEATABLE. For instance: Flying Tackle Guy comes in, Jab Guy steps back
and jabs, Flying Tackle guy keeps moving and nails him, ready for the Flying
Tackle to Iron Claw combo (with Kippup). Flying Tackle guy will never ever
lose a fight unless the enemy is a faster grappler.

This also adds a whole new dimension to mobility and blocking, etc. For
instance, here comes Spinning Pile Driver Guy, you better hope your Flash
Kick will dizzy him, since you can't go anywhere. (This disadvantage to
no-move maneuvers also makes Triple Strike even more absurdly useless than
it already is.)

It also makes the Jab into what is should be, a maneuvering/setup/defensive
strike, giving the jabber an opportunity to get out of a hold, just use the
movement to get the hell away from Dragon Kick Guy, or step into an
advantageous position to set up a combo, all while doing some measly
damage. And of course, measly damage is the drawback of the jab. Yes
Christy Martin won on 3 perfect jabs, but that was just because her opponent
was already so trashed that she was unable to do a thing about it.





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*much* better.

Morgado, Mike wrote:

>
> Hi to those who have already signed up.
>
> So is this a better idea? Or would you prefer to go back to the old
> address book system?
>
> This is also basically a test.
>
> Thanks,
>
> CMM
>
> ----
> Read this list on the Web at http://www.makelist.com/list/streetfighter/
> To unsubscribe, email to streetfighter-unsubscribe@...
> To subscribe, email to streetfighter-subscribe@...
> --
> Start a FREE E-Mail List at http://www.makelist.com !

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> ----------
> From: Howard Collins[SMTP:howard@...]
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 3:20 PM
> To: Nelson, Christopher T
> Cc: 'skarsten@...'; Chad Berger; Chris Green; Chris
> Hoffmann; DDidelot; Eric Thomson; John Kosmas; Micheal Duynhoven; Mike
> Morgado; mitchell; Ryan Rich; Tasharga; Viper;
> streetfighter@...
> Subject: Re: SFSTG - Useless Maneuvers and their Uses
>
> NOTE: Posting to old list and new one as well. Blah.
>
> Nelson, Christopher T wrote:
>
> > By the way, can anyone come up with a good rationale for disallowing
> > Aborts to Blocking Special Maneuvers (Punch Defense, et al)? I've
>
> > > been
> > > trying to find one for ages, but the best I can do is that since
> > > they're
> > > "special" blocks you can't just fling one up as a last-ditch
> effort to
> > > save your ass, unlike a reg. block or a Jump, but then by that
> > > reasoning
> > > I should allow you to Abort to a Move, too...
> > >
> > You don't allow aborting to movement? So how do you get
> > away from grapplers? ???
> > I dunno, we've always played defaults like really basic
> > instinctive defensive maneuvers...
> > You know, like an instant reaction to something. So,
> > as such, you could go to a block (or basic move) easily,
> > but anything more complex than that would be out
> > of the question, as it is something you would have to
> > 'plan' for. IE, a punch-defense assumes that you are planning
> > on your opponent throwing a punch at you, while aborting
> > to a defense implies that your opponent surprised you in some way...
>
> Nah, abort to Move isn't specifically allowed; abort to Jump is,
> making Jump
> a pretty necessary maneuver for survival. Also, you can get away from
> grapplers with moves like the jab... enemy moves into your hex, you
> take a
> step back and pop him, he's out of luck. This works out really well
> in
> play, as a sustained hold from a stong grappler is a fight-ender, and
> he
> WILL eventually get it off.
>
> Oh, and since an interrupt happns at any point during a turn, the key
> is
> timing. For instance, someone moves in two hexes with a flying tackle
> , so
> you move to the side and jab BEFORE they enter your hex... whoops, he
> moves
> into the hex after you pop him for one point and slams you. However,
> if
> you time it so that he goes to grab you in your hex and THEN step back
> and
> jab, you're in good shape.
>
> It may seem unfair to grapplers, but consider the alternative:
> without this
> rule, grapplers cannot be stopped, and anyone with a flying tackle is
> UNBEATABLE. For instance: Flying Tackle Guy comes in, Jab Guy steps
> back
> and jabs, Flying Tackle guy keeps moving and nails him, ready for the
> Flying
> Tackle to Iron Claw combo (with Kippup). Flying Tackle guy will never
> ever
> lose a fight unless the enemy is a faster grappler.
>
> This also adds a whole new dimension to mobility and blocking, etc.
> For
> instance, here comes Spinning Pile Driver Guy, you better hope your
> Flash
> Kick will dizzy him, since you can't go anywhere. (This disadvantage
> to
> no-move maneuvers also makes Triple Strike even more absurdly useless
> than
> it already is.)
>
> It also makes the Jab into what is should be, a
> maneuvering/setup/defensive
> strike, giving the jabber an opportunity to get out of a hold, just
> use the
> movement to get the hell away from Dragon Kick Guy, or step into an
> advantageous position to set up a combo, all while doing some measly
> damage. And of course, measly damage is the drawback of the jab. Yes
> Christy Martin won on 3 perfect jabs, but that was just because her
> opponent
> was already so trashed that she was unable to do a thing about it.
>
>

So, you let your players default to Jab too? We're just
talking about defaults here right? I'm well aware of the advantages
of fast maneuvers vs. grapplers, but now I'm kinda confused.
If you default to a maneuver, you automatically interupt them,
right? So why would you default to a jab, when you could
default, say, to a Roundhouse??? Or am I just totally
misreading you. I know when we play w/ defaults, you're
only allowed to default to basic block, basic move, jump, and
sometimes grappling defense or breakfall.
And that's it. Being able to default to an attack sounds
way overpowered. But maybe it isn't, if you can only
default to a jab... No, I must not be understanding you
correctly.

My original question was meant to say something like,
"Why can't you default to basic move??"
Yeah, I think that's more like it. I don't see that as
being particually powerful. It lets you default & get away
from a grappler when you've goofed, just like a Jump does,
only you don't get to dodge projectiles with it.
A-ways, I'm late. gotta run!

-Chris!






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you mis-read him. he was answering "how do you get away from
grapplers?" the answer, of course, is to be fast. Jab is nearly as fast
as Move and allows you to do some damage, to boot.

I once experimented with letting players abort (default) to any maneuver
they wished. what seemed interesting in theory became a nightmare in
practice.

Nelson, Christopher T wrote:

>
> > ----------
> > From: Howard Collins[SMTP:howard@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 1998 3:20 PM
> > To: Nelson, Christopher T
> > Cc: 'skarsten@...'; Chad Berger; Chris Green; Chris
> > Hoffmann; DDidelot; Eric Thomson; John Kosmas; Micheal Duynhoven; Mike
> > Morgado; mitchell; Ryan Rich; Tasharga; Viper;
> > streetfighter@...
> > Subject: Re: SFSTG - Useless Maneuvers and their Uses
> >
> > NOTE: Posting to old list and new one as well. Blah.
> >
> > Nelson, Christopher T wrote:
> >
> > > By the way, can anyone come up with a good rationale for disallowing
> > > Aborts to Blocking Special Maneuvers (Punch Defense, et al)? I've
> >
> > > > been
> > > > trying to find one for ages, but the best I can do is that since
> > > > they're
> > > > "special" blocks you can't just fling one up as a last-ditch
> > effort to
> > > > save your ass, unlike a reg. block or a Jump, but then by that
> > > > reasoning
> > > > I should allow you to Abort to a Move, too...
> > > >
> > > You don't allow aborting to movement? So how do you get
> > > away from grapplers? ???
> > > I dunno, we've always played defaults like really basic
> > > instinctive defensive maneuvers...
> > > You know, like an instant reaction to something. So,
> > > as such, you could go to a block (or basic move) easily,
> > > but anything more complex than that would be out
> > > of the question, as it is something you would have to
> > > 'plan' for. IE, a punch-defense assumes that you are planning
> > > on your opponent throwing a punch at you, while aborting
> > > to a defense implies that your opponent surprised you in some way...
> >
> > Nah, abort to Move isn't specifically allowed; abort to Jump is,
> > making Jump
> > a pretty necessary maneuver for survival. Also, you can get away from
> > grapplers with moves like the jab... enemy moves into your hex, you
> > take a
> > step back and pop him, he's out of luck. This works out really well
> > in
> > play, as a sustained hold from a stong grappler is a fight-ender, and
> > he
> > WILL eventually get it off.
> >
> > Oh, and since an interrupt happns at any point during a turn, the key
> > is
> > timing. For instance, someone moves in two hexes with a flying tackle
> > , so
> > you move to the side and jab BEFORE they enter your hex... whoops, he
> > moves
> > into the hex after you pop him for one point and slams you. However,
> > if
> > you time it so that he goes to grab you in your hex and THEN step back
> > and
> > jab, you're in good shape.
> >
> > It may seem unfair to grapplers, but consider the alternative:
> > without this
> > rule, grapplers cannot be stopped, and anyone with a flying tackle is
> > UNBEATABLE. For instance: Flying Tackle Guy comes in, Jab Guy steps
> > back
> > and jabs, Flying Tackle guy keeps moving and nails him, ready for the
> > Flying
> > Tackle to Iron Claw combo (with Kippup). Flying Tackle guy will never
> > ever
> > lose a fight unless the enemy is a faster grappler.
> >
> > This also adds a whole new dimension to mobility and blocking, etc.
> > For
> > instance, here comes Spinning Pile Driver Guy, you better hope your
> > Flash
> > Kick will dizzy him, since you can't go anywhere. (This disadvantage
> > to
> > no-move maneuvers also makes Triple Strike even more absurdly useless
> > than
> > it already is.)
> >
> > It also makes the Jab into what is should be, a
> > maneuvering/setup/defensive
> > strike, giving the jabber an opportunity to get out of a hold, just
> > use the
> > movement to get the hell away from Dragon Kick Guy, or step into an
> > advantageous position to set up a combo, all while doing some measly
> > damage. And of course, measly damage is the drawback of the jab. Yes
> > Christy Martin won on 3 perfect jabs, but that was just because her
> > opponent
> > was already so trashed that she was unable to do a thing about it.
> >
> >
> So, you let your players default to Jab too? We're just
> talking about defaults here right? I'm well aware of the advantages
> of fast maneuvers vs. grapplers, but now I'm kinda confused.
> If you default to a maneuver, you automatically interupt them,
> right? So why would you default to a jab, when you could
> default, say, to a Roundhouse??? Or am I just totally
> misreading you. I know when we play w/ defaults, you're
> only allowed to default to basic block, basic move, jump, and
> sometimes grappling defense or breakfall.
> And that's it. Being able to default to an attack sounds
> way overpowered. But maybe it isn't, if you can only
> default to a jab... No, I must not be understanding you
> correctly.
>
> My original question was meant to say something like,
> "Why can't you default to basic move??"
> Yeah, I think that's more like it. I don't see that as
> being particually powerful. It lets you default & get away
> from a grappler when you've goofed, just like a Jump does,
> only you don't get to dodge projectiles with it.
> A-ways, I'm late. gotta run!
>
> -Chris!

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Nelson, Christopher T wrote:

> So, you let your players default to Jab too? We're just
> talking about defaults here right? I'm well aware of the advantages
> of fast maneuvers vs. grapplers, but now I'm kinda confused.
> If you default to a maneuver, you automatically interupt them,
> right? So why would you default to a jab, when you could
> default, say, to a Roundhouse??? Or am I just totally
> misreading you. I know when we play w/ defaults, you're
> only allowed to default to basic block, basic move, jump, and
> sometimes grappling defense or breakfall.
> And that's it. Being able to default to an attack sounds
> way overpowered. But maybe it isn't, if you can only
> default to a jab... No, I must not be understanding you
> correctly.
>
> My original question was meant to say something like,
> "Why can't you default to basic move??"
> Yeah, I think that's more like it. I don't see that as
> being particually powerful. It lets you default & get away
> from a grappler when you've goofed, just like a Jump does,
> only you don't get to dodge projectiles with it.
> A-ways, I'm late. gotta run!
>
> -Chris!

Nah, I think what you mean by "default" is "abort", i.e. spending
willpower to execute a different maneuver. In that case, no you cannot
abort to a jab. According to the rules, the only things you can abort to
are jump and blocks (any kind). The jab example was just something which
is used as a defense against grapplers, just me rambling basically. You
can't spend willpower and abort to it. Some moron GM I know (nyeah nyeah)
once played that you can abort to anything, but then all fights turn into a
contest of willpower and dex. Ex: Here comes Cartwheel Kick guy, so
Defending Guy aborts to Kick Defense, so Cartwheel Kick Guy aborts to Knee
Basher... you can see where this is going.

It works out well to simply leave the abort maneuvers as they are: Jump
(with no added maneuvers, like Jumping Jab), Block, Punch/Kick Defense,
Deflecting Punch, Missile Reflection, Energy Reflection, San He, and any
other dumb blocks created by the GM or by a player (approved by the GM, of
course).

Hmm I don't seem to be getting replied back to from the makelist mailing
list...



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For those of you still using the address book system for now, please
remove the account justin@.... Someone had the wrong address in
his reply field and now this guy is getting a lot of unwanted mail.
Someone mentioned they werent getting replies from the MakeList Mailing
list? Have they shown up now? I have set up my hotmail account for the
address book and my work account uses the MakeList list and I got all
the same messages. (If not more from the MakeList) So, is everyone on
the MakeList Mailing list now?

Thanks,

Mike



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Morgado, Mike wrote:

>
> For those of you still using the address book system for now, please
> remove the account justin@.... Someone had the wrong address in
> his reply field and now this guy is getting a lot of unwanted mail.
> Someone mentioned they werent getting replies from the MakeList Mailing
> list? Have they shown up now? I have set up my hotmail account for the
> address book and my work account uses the MakeList list and I got all
> the same messages. (If not more from the MakeList) So, is everyone on
> the MakeList Mailing list now?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike

Present and accounted for, SIR!


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Yah getting messages now... they just take a while.

Steve 'Doom Trooper' Karstensen wrote:

> Morgado, Mike wrote:
> >
> > For those of you still using the address book system for now, please
> > remove the account justin@.... Someone had the wrong address in
> > his reply field and now this guy is getting a lot of unwanted mail.
> > Someone mentioned they werent getting replies from the MakeList Mailing
> > list? Have they shown up now? I have set up my hotmail account for the
> > address book and my work account uses the MakeList list and I got all
> > the same messages. (If not more from the MakeList) So, is everyone on
> > the MakeList Mailing list now?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike
>
> Present and accounted for, SIR!
>
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> Nah, I think what you mean by "default" is "abort", i.e. spending
> willpower to execute a different maneuver. In that case, no you
> cannot
> abort to a jab. According to the rules, the only things you can abort
> to
> are jump and blocks (any kind). The jab example was just something
> which
> is used as a defense against grapplers, just me rambling basically.
> You
> can't spend willpower and abort to it. Some moron GM I know (nyeah
> nyeah)
> once played that you can abort to anything, but then all fights turn
> into a
> contest of willpower and dex. Ex: Here comes Cartwheel Kick guy, so
> Defending Guy aborts to Kick Defense, so Cartwheel Kick Guy aborts to
> Knee
> Basher... you can see where this is going.
>
> It works out well to simply leave the abort maneuvers as they are:
> Jump
> (with no added maneuvers, like Jumping Jab), Block, Punch/Kick
> Defense,
> Deflecting Punch, Missile Reflection, Energy Reflection, San He, and
> any
> other dumb blocks created by the GM or by a player (approved by the
> GM, of
> course).
>
> Hmm I don't seem to be getting replied back to from the makelist
> mailing
> list...
>
>

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, I use the words default/abort
pretty much interchangeably. A-ways,
I've always felt that aborting a maneuver was a really powerful
abiltity, and that the moves you should be allowed to abort to
should be really really limited. But I never could come
up w/ a good reason why you shouldn't be allowed
to abort to basic movement, since you can always
default to a jump, which seems like a much better maneuver,
unless for some odd reason you need the extra 3 hexes
of movement you get w/ basic move over jumping.

Also, when you default(abort) to block, say, do you let your
chacters use Make Wara if they have it? Normally you
get a +2 speed bonus next round if you block something, do you
give them their +2 speed bonus for a block they aborted to?
Do you let them start a combo out of a block they've aborted
to? (IE if they have Block to Suplex as a combo, & they abort to
block from some other maneuver, can they count
the block they aborted to as the block that starts their
combo? We've always said no to all
of these, at least after a rank 3 PC beat Sagat
using all of the above tricks. It was really disgusting.

On a total side note, the game I'm running right now is
all newbies, and to make it easier for them, I didn't
introduce a whole bunch of the more complex rules.
As they got better, I've been adding rules slowly back
in, so that they can adjust to them accordingly & not
be just overwhelmed by the system. A-ways,
it's been almost 3 months, and I've pretty much added
everything back in, except for abort maneuvers, and
the game runs pretty well. Willpower isn't nearly as
important as it used to be, and good combos can
be REALLY devestating b/c there's no good way to
stop them. Other than that thou, it seems pretty balanced.
But I'm gonna hafta add aborts back in eventually. (Hence
my obsession w/ this topic) Listening to y'all, I'm guessing
your rules for abort-maneuvers are pretty different from mine...
Which is cool. Always neat to see what house rules
develop to tweak the system. A-ways, it's lunch time,
Gotta run.
-Chris!



On a side note, I'm sending this just just streetfighter@...
Anyone know of a good way to trace & see if it works right?
Or could someone check & make sure we'll all subscribed...
I tested it yesterday, & it did send me a copy, but it took like
4 or 5 hours to do it. Anyone else notice that it seems really slow?
(Other than that thou, I like it... heh.)




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Actually, I say "yes" to all three. Maka Wara is an overpriced special
ability which really doesn't do much damage by itslef, and yah if a
character is Block Guy there's no reason to penalize him further for his
silly concept. A rank 3 take out Sagat with cheap tricks? I find that hard
to believe... hmmm ok, rank 3 guy has Block 5, Stamina 5, Maka Wara, and umm
some dumb ability like Block to Double Hit Kick (Dizzy). Hmm Sagat has
Stamina 6... each Maka Wara will do... ONE die of damage. Sagat: Stamina
6, 20 HP. Block Guy: Lousy ability to do damage. If he did manage to win
by using blocks and Maka Wara effectively, the guy should get a freaking
medal. Sagat ain't no chump, and he also has Maka Wara... at a BETTER level
that any rank 3. Well, it's hard to comment on other people's campaigns
without knowing the mechanics, how much of a monty haul campaign it is, and
how smart the villains fight, but rank 3 + Sagat = rank 3 burger. It must
have been a weird die-rolling day.

As for Block to *** combos being abusive, it's part of the game. The
balancing factors are that you waste a turn blocking while your friends are
getting the snot beat out of them and, of course, being grabbed by smart
fighters. Why didn't Sagat just laugh at the fool and walk in with a knee
basher? Or even his more standard maneuvers... woe is me, here comes that
die of Maka Wara, maybe I should hold off on this TIGER UPPERCUT in case I
take damage...

I say this because my main character IS Block Guy (started 3/4/4, block 4,
Maka Wara, Block to Fierce, etc.), and lemme tell you, I thought that Block
to Fierce and Maka Wara was da bomb on paper... NOT. Right now he's a
pretty kickass fighter, but he's also rank 6 and a Majestic Crow student,
and this is after YEARS of just sucking. Oh here comes another combat... I
guess I'll BLOCK while my partners do huge amounts of damage... For more
drawbacks of the Block-To-Whatever combo check out Steve's page, where I
rant some more.

Really, everything is balanced out (except that stupid Cartwheel Kick) as
written in the rules. Same goes for the Abort to Jump vs Abort to Move.
Jump is an instinctive defense, i.e. you see a car rushing at you, you JUMP
away, not turn around and walk. The maneuver point reflects the time spent
into refining the jump so that it works all the time, without falling like
an idiot, in stressful combat situations.

Nelson, Christopher T wrote:

> > Nah, I think what you mean by "default" is "abort", i.e. spending
> > willpower to execute a different maneuver. In that case, no you
> > cannot
> > abort to a jab. According to the rules, the only things you can abort
> > to
> > are jump and blocks (any kind). The jab example was just something
> > which
> > is used as a defense against grapplers, just me rambling basically.
> > You
> > can't spend willpower and abort to it. Some moron GM I know (nyeah
> > nyeah)
> > once played that you can abort to anything, but then all fights turn
> > into a
> > contest of willpower and dex. Ex: Here comes Cartwheel Kick guy, so
> > Defending Guy aborts to Kick Defense, so Cartwheel Kick Guy aborts to
> > Knee
> > Basher... you can see where this is going.
> >
> > It works out well to simply leave the abort maneuvers as they are:
> > Jump
> > (with no added maneuvers, like Jumping Jab), Block, Punch/Kick
> > Defense,
> > Deflecting Punch, Missile Reflection, Energy Reflection, San He, and
> > any
> > other dumb blocks created by the GM or by a player (approved by the
> > GM, of
> > course).
> >
> > Hmm I don't seem to be getting replied back to from the makelist
> > mailing
> > list...
> >
> >
> Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, I use the words default/abort
> pretty much interchangeably. A-ways,
> I've always felt that aborting a maneuver was a really powerful
> abiltity, and that the moves you should be allowed to abort to
> should be really really limited. But I never could come
> up w/ a good reason why you shouldn't be allowed
> to abort to basic movement, since you can always
> default to a jump, which seems like a much better maneuver,
> unless for some odd reason you need the extra 3 hexes
> of movement you get w/ basic move over jumping.
>
> Also, when you default(abort) to block, say, do you let your
> chacters use Make Wara if they have it? Normally you
> get a +2 speed bonus next round if you block something, do you
> give them their +2 speed bonus for a block they aborted to?
> Do you let them start a combo out of a block they've aborted
> to? (IE if they have Block to Suplex as a combo, & they abort to
> block from some other maneuver, can they count
> the block they aborted to as the block that starts their
> combo? We've always said no to all
> of these, at least after a rank 3 PC beat Sagat
> using all of the above tricks. It was really disgusting.
>
> On a total side note, the game I'm running right now is
> all newbies, and to make it easier for them, I didn't
> introduce a whole bunch of the more complex rules.
> As they got better, I've been adding rules slowly back
> in, so that they can adjust to them accordingly & not
> be just overwhelmed by the system. A-ways,
> it's been almost 3 months, and I've pretty much added
> everything back in, except for abort maneuvers, and
> the game runs pretty well. Willpower isn't nearly as
> important as it used to be, and good combos can
> be REALLY devestating b/c there's no good way to
> stop them. Other than that thou, it seems pretty balanced.
> But I'm gonna hafta add aborts back in eventually. (Hence
> my obsession w/ this topic) Listening to y'all, I'm guessing
> your rules for abort-maneuvers are pretty different from mine...
> Which is cool. Always neat to see what house rules
> develop to tweak the system. A-ways, it's lunch time,
> Gotta run.
> -Chris!
>
> On a side note, I'm sending this just just streetfighter@...
> Anyone know of a good way to trace & see if it works right?
> Or could someone check & make sure we'll all subscribed...
> I tested it yesterday, & it did send me a copy, but it took like
> 4 or 5 hours to do it. Anyone else notice that it seems really slow?
> (Other than that thou, I like it... heh.)
>
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> Actually, I say "yes" to all three. Maka Wara is an overpriced
> special
> ability which really doesn't do much damage by itslef, and yah if a
> character is Block Guy there's no reason to penalize him further for
> his
> silly concept. A rank 3 take out Sagat with cheap tricks? I find
> that hard
> to believe... hmmm ok, rank 3 guy has Block 5, Stamina 5, Maka Wara,
> and umm
> some dumb ability like Block to Double Hit Kick (Dizzy). Hmm Sagat
> has
> Stamina 6... each Maka Wara will do... ONE die of damage. Sagat:
> Stamina
> 6, 20 HP. Block Guy: Lousy ability to do damage. If he did manage
> to win
> by using blocks and Maka Wara effectively, the guy should get a
> freaking
> medal. Sagat ain't no chump, and he also has Maka Wara... at a BETTER
> level
> that any rank 3. Well, it's hard to comment on other people's
> campaigns
> without knowing the mechanics, how much of a monty haul campaign it
> is, and
> how smart the villains fight, but rank 3 + Sagat = rank 3 burger. It
> must
> have been a weird die-rolling day.
>

Yeah, well, needless to say, Sagat had alot of disadvantages against
him that day, and dice rolling was only the start of it. Plus,
that was our 1st real campaign, and well, we all know what kinda
mistakes that can lead to. A-ways, It's always stood out
in my memory as one of those great example fights. The
player was constantly aborting to Punch/Kick Defense,
and using the Maka-Wara damage as part of a dizzy combo.
With Punch defense up, Sagat was only doing 2 dice of damage
w/ his Tiger Uppercut to the PC, who was doing
1 die of dammage back, but seemed
to roll more successes than Sagat did that day...
Either way, all 3 rounds ended up going to time-out decisions,
and somehow the PC ended up w/ a higher percentage twice...
Just really wierd. We ended up having to change ALOT of
rules to keep that from happening again. (Like if you
have Maka Wara, you're imune to damage from it...)

But as you say, each game plays differently depending on
the house rules /Xp level/and general flavor of cheese.
I'm not particually sure that PC deserves an award for
power-gaming the system like that, but it did make for
some interesting role-playing afterwards.

> I say this because my main character IS Block Guy (started 3/4/4,
> block 4,
> Maka Wara, Block to Fierce, etc.), and lemme tell you, I thought that
> Block
> to Fierce and Maka Wara was da bomb on paper... NOT.
>

Funny, all the PCs/NPCs I make w/ Make Wara seem to
come out the same way... Cool on paper yet sucking wind
in the ring... Still don't know why that is. Whenever it's used
against me, it seems like it's just the most abusable move
out there. (No, Not really, but you get my drift)

> For more
> drawbacks of the Block-To-Whatever combo check out Steve's page, where
> I rant some more.
>

Actually, that brings out another frustration I've come accross
as a player. Really, deep down I don't have a problem w/
blocking in any way. I've always felt it's pretty balanced,
even w/ the all the bonuses it gives, simply because there
are simple & obvious ways around someone who blocks
all the time. (Throws, Grapples, 'Overhead' hits, etc etc...)
But for the life of me, I have yet to figure out a good counter
when someone's Drunken Monkey Rolling (DMR) around the ring.
So far, about the best thing I've found to do is taunt them.
I suppose if I felt really cool, I could try to Thunderclap or
Stunning Shout them.. No, wait Thunderclap has a range,
and Stunning shout has to be faster to make them lose
their action that round.... Uh, does anyone have a good
counter for someone who's gonna sit there, DMR, DMR, DMR,
maybe come in for a single fast grab or knockdown,
(Combo DMR to Something to DMR) and then
DMRs away until time runs out. Since DMR gets a fireball
dodge, you can't really projectile them to death, and
it's SUPER frustrating when you know what he's gonna do,
and yet can't think of a single good action to do to make him
stop. I mean, aside from like a Block to Jab (or similar speed)
combo, Executed at the right time, I can't think of anything
to really stop this. Now, granted, PCs who try this strategy
end up w/ glories of zero, and are near useless in
big group fights, but it does get the wins in the ring...
I dunno.
Just my ramblings... Anyone got some suggestions? Anyone
running this differently so it's not a problem?

> Really, everything is balanced out (except that stupid Cartwheel Kick)
> as
> written in the rules. Same goes for the Abort to Jump vs Abort to
> Move.
> Jump is an instinctive defense, i.e. you see a car rushing at you, you
> JUMP
> away, not turn around and walk. The maneuver point reflects the time
> spent
> into refining the jump so that it works all the time, without falling
> like
> an idiot, in stressful combat situations.
>

Good point. But some characters wouldn't naturally 'jump' away
from a grappler when they go for the Spinning Pile Driver.
(Or an oncomming Cadilac for that matter) I know
a drunken-master would rather sorta sway around in that
drunken stupor they do so well & end up 'behind' him (or it).
That's not a Jump, but certainly a feasible abort
for a character that doesn't even walk straight. Yeah,
I realize that's more like Duck n Weave, but you get
my picture. Some characters don't buy jump for Role-Playing
reasons, and somehow
it doesn't seem fair to punish them & make them buy a maneuver
that doesn't fit the character, for something that anyone should
be able to do (Abort to a maneuver that lets you escape a grab)
I mean, anyone who wants to limit themselves by not buying
Jump deserves SOME breaks IMO.

A-ways, just my 2 cents. Well, looking at the size of this,
maybe a little more than 2 cents. Any comments anyone? (Except
for how cheesy our game must have been to let a rank 3
beat Sagat. I know it was Chedar & freely admit it, it's just
the way we play sometimes =))
-Talk at ya Laters!
-Chris!






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simple. You penalize the Drunken Monkey Roller a point of honor
for being a broken record and abusing his maneuvers. It's right
in the Honor table as "using a maneuver your opponent
has a particular weakness to multiple times in rapid succession" or some
such.


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Nelson, Christopher T wrote:

> Yeah, well, needless to say, Sagat had alot of disadvantages against
> him that day, and dice rolling was only the start of it. Plus,
> that was our 1st real campaign, and well, we all know what kinda
> mistakes that can lead to. A-ways, It's always stood out
> in my memory as one of those great example fights. The
> player was constantly aborting to Punch/Kick Defense,
> and using the Maka-Wara damage as part of a dizzy combo.
> With Punch defense up, Sagat was only doing 2 dice of damage
> w/ his Tiger Uppercut to the PC, who was doing
> 1 die of dammage back, but seemed
> to roll more successes than Sagat did that day...
> Either way, all 3 rounds ended up going to time-out decisions,
> and somehow the PC ended up w/ a higher percentage twice...
> Just really wierd. We ended up having to change ALOT of
> rules to keep that from happening again. (Like if you
> have Maka Wara, you're imune to damage from it...)
>
> But as you say, each game plays differently depending on
> the house rules /Xp level/and general flavor of cheese.
> I'm not particually sure that PC deserves an award for
> power-gaming the system like that, but it did make for
> some interesting role-playing afterwards.
>
> > I say this because my main character IS Block Guy (started 3/4/4,
> > block 4,
> > Maka Wara, Block to Fierce, etc.), and lemme tell you, I thought
> that
> > Block
> > to Fierce and Maka Wara was da bomb on paper... NOT.
> >
> Funny, all the PCs/NPCs I make w/ Make Wara seem to
> come out the same way... Cool on paper yet sucking wind
> in the ring... Still don't know why that is. Whenever it's used
> against me, it seems like it's just the most abusable move
> out there. (No, Not really, but you get my drift)
>
> > For more
> > drawbacks of the Block-To-Whatever combo check out Steve's page,
> where
> > I rant some more.
> >
> Actually, that brings out another frustration I've come accross
> as a player. Really, deep down I don't have a problem w/
> blocking in any way. I've always felt it's pretty balanced,
> even w/ the all the bonuses it gives, simply because there
> are simple & obvious ways around someone who blocks
> all the time. (Throws, Grapples, 'Overhead' hits, etc etc...)
> But for the life of me, I have yet to figure out a good counter
> when someone's Drunken Monkey Rolling (DMR) around the ring.
> So far, about the best thing I've found to do is taunt them.
> I suppose if I felt really cool, I could try to Thunderclap or
> Stunning Shout them.. No, wait Thunderclap has a range,
> and Stunning shout has to be faster to make them lose
> their action that round.... Uh, does anyone have a good
> counter for someone who's gonna sit there, DMR, DMR, DMR,
> maybe come in for a single fast grab or knockdown,
> (Combo DMR to Something to DMR) and then
> DMRs away until time runs out. Since DMR gets a fireball
> dodge, you can't really projectile them to death, and
> it's SUPER frustrating when you know what he's gonna do,
> and yet can't think of a single good action to do to make him
> stop. I mean, aside from like a Block to Jab (or similar speed)
> combo, Executed at the right time, I can't think of anything
> to really stop this. Now, granted, PCs who try this strategy
> end up w/ glories of zero, and are near useless in
> big group fights, but it does get the wins in the ring...
> I dunno.
> Just my ramblings... Anyone got some suggestions? Anyone
> running this differently so it's not a problem?
>
> > Really, everything is balanced out (except that stupid Cartwheel
> Kick)
> > as
> > written in the rules. Same goes for the Abort to Jump vs Abort to
> > Move.
> > Jump is an instinctive defense, i.e. you see a car rushing at you,
> you
> > JUMP
> > away, not turn around and walk. The maneuver point reflects the
> time
> > spent
> > into refining the jump so that it works all the time, without
> falling
> > like
> > an idiot, in stressful combat situations.
> >
> Good point. But some characters wouldn't naturally 'jump' away
> from a grappler when they go for the Spinning Pile Driver.
> (Or an oncomming Cadilac for that matter) I know
> a drunken-master would rather sorta sway around in that
> drunken stupor they do so well & end up 'behind' him (or it).
> That's not a Jump, but certainly a feasible abort
> for a character that doesn't even walk straight. Yeah,
> I realize that's more like Duck n Weave, but you get
> my picture. Some characters don't buy jump for Role-Playing
> reasons, and somehow
> it doesn't seem fair to punish them & make them buy a maneuver
> that doesn't fit the character, for something that anyone should
> be able to do (Abort to a maneuver that lets you escape a grab)
> I mean, anyone who wants to limit themselves by not buying
> Jump deserves SOME breaks IMO.
>
> A-ways, just my 2 cents. Well, looking at the size of this,
> maybe a little more than 2 cents. Any comments anyone? (Except
> for how cheesy our game must have been to let a rank 3
> beat Sagat. I know it was Chedar & freely admit it, it's just
> the way we play sometimes =))
> -Talk at ya Laters!
> -Chris!
>
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> Read this list on the Web at
> http://www.makelist.com/list/streetfighter/
> To unsubscribe, email to streetfighter-unsubscribe@...
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Haha. Well, Maka Wara guys just suck because, well, blocking sucks.
Block guy has a lot of problems, usually because they tend not to do a
whole lot of damage, their fights are boring, and people eventually
figure things out... when they get some glory, or after an opponent has
fought them, they know what to expect, so plan to see some monkey grab
punches coming up. And just look out for Block to Elbow Smash...
perfect cheese out maneuver. Of course, the enemy can do it too...

Drunken Monkey Roll guy is just going to lose glory and not be invited
to some of the better tournaments. Honor, donno... technically no one
has a "weakness" to DMR, but you certainly wouldn't be getting much
honor for those fights. This falls under the "Chicken Fighter" category
on Steve's page.

Block to Jab... well, what can you do, it exists, and there's not much
to be done about it, but it's just one of those things. Plus, who cares
about the speed 9 jab coming in, when it's interrupting a speed -1
buffalo punch? There's a balance for everything.



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Well folks, I've been meaning to put a piece up on my site
about this for some time, and Christopher's recent questions have caused
me to consider doing it soon... But before I do, I'm going to spew my
ideas here to get feedback.

The main premise is, and most new Gamemasters forget this, is that
storytelling will overcome any loopholes in the game system with a bit
of forethought.

For example... you say you have a rank 3 fighter who can beat Sagat?
that rank three fighter should never be able to take Sagat in a
tournament fight. Why? Because Sagat would never *fight* a Rank 3 in a
tournament. He wouldn't waste his time to even teach the punk a
lesson. He's got better things to do with his time... like obsess over
Ryu.
You say your character is a one-trick wonder and keeps abusing his
maneuvers? If it annoys you as a storyteller, imagine how much it must
annoy the spectators who are watching the fight. They're not there to
watch a foot race, tumbling match, or acrobatics exhibition. They wanna
see two shmucks booting one another in the head. Glory and/or honor
penalties abound for players who become broken records.

You got a player who abuses Musical Accompaniment? No? Well, I had
one. He'd duct-tape his headphones to his noggin prior to getting into
a fight. He stopped that practice when the tournament was raided and he
had to flee for his life, then got creamed by a car he didn't hear
coming.

Anyway, the point is, you as a gamemaster have the right and the duty to
reign in your munchkiny players. Street Fighter emphasizes combat
advancement over regular advancement, unlike other White Wolf games...
but that advancement is not supposed to come easily. Senseis who know
the top-of-the-line maneuvers are supposed to be neither easy to find
nor easy to deal with. A munchkin will probably not have lived up to
any honorable sensei's ideas of restraint and dignity, and thus will
probably not be allowed the honor of learning the maneuver they've
searched the world over for. Even if they have, the teaching may be a
lot more than they can handle!

of course, players who get really good for their rank are going to be
drawing challenges like there's no tommorow, which can be bad if they
have to use Chi and Willpower to beat some shmuck who called them out in
a bar right before they went to storm the Shadoloo fortress where they
*really* need those disposables...


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Hello, everybody. I stumbled upon the SF:STG website long ago, and I
took advantage of the recent change to join the mailing list. Anyways,
I've read a few posts here and there, and they've been quite
interesting, but it seems I'm missing a great deal of background
information that I might need. So...could you guys help me out?

Thanks!

Nick



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I don't think it should be possible to have Maka Wara be used in
a dizzy combo. Thats just plain foolishness. silly

>Yeah, well, needless to say, Sagat had alot of disadvantages against
>him that day, and dice rolling was only the start of it. Plus,
>that was our 1st real campaign, and well, we all know what kinda
>mistakes that can lead to. A-ways, It's always stood out
>in my memory as one of those great example fights. The
>player was constantly aborting to Punch/Kick Defense,
>and using the Maka-Wara damage as part of a dizzy combo.
>With Punch defense up, Sagat was only doing 2 dice of damage
>w/ his Tiger Uppercut to the PC, who was doing
>1 die of dammage back, but seemed
>to roll more successes than Sagat did that day...
>Either way, all 3 rounds ended up going to time-out decisions,
>and somehow the PC ended up w/ a higher percentage twice...
>Just really wierd. We ended up having to change ALOT of
>rules to keep that from happening again. (Like if you
>have Maka Wara, you're imune to damage from it...)

Good question.
Dashing punch, Any hurricane kick-type maneuver, preferably a
very fast one.

>Actually, that brings out another frustration I've come accross
>as a player. Really, deep down I don't have a problem w/
>blocking in any way. I've always felt it's pretty balanced,
>even w/ the all the bonuses it gives, simply because there
>are simple & obvious ways around someone who blocks
>all the time. (Throws, Grapples, 'Overhead' hits, etc etc...)
>But for the life of me, I have yet to figure out a good counter
>when someone's Drunken Monkey Rolling (DMR) around the ring.

And I'm sick about Cartwheel kick, see my page for the stats it should
have (IMHO)
wwwgeocitiescom/TimesSquare/Ring/9913


ryanmrich

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And i saw some guy on a TV special not too long ago, rolling
around on the ground all goofy. Think what kinda babes he gets.

RyanMRich



On Sat, 25 Jul 1998 04:26:58 -0400 Howard Collins <howard@...>
writes:

>Nelson, Christopher T wrote:
>
>> Yeah, well, needless to say, Sagat had alot of disadvantages against
>> him that day, and dice rolling was only the start of it. Plus,
>> that was our 1st real campaign, and well, we all know what kinda
>> mistakes that can lead to. A-ways, It's always stood out
>> in my memory as one of those great example fights. The
>> player was constantly aborting to Punch/Kick Defense,
>> and using the Maka-Wara damage as part of a dizzy combo.
>> With Punch defense up, Sagat was only doing 2 dice of damage
>> w/ his Tiger Uppercut to the PC, who was doing
>> 1 die of dammage back, but seemed
>> to roll more successes than Sagat did that day...
>> Either way, all 3 rounds ended up going to time-out decisions,
>> and somehow the PC ended up w/ a higher percentage twice...
>> Just really wierd. We ended up having to change ALOT of
>> rules to keep that from happening again. (Like if you
>> have Maka Wara, you're imune to damage from it...)
>>
>> But as you say, each game plays differently depending on
>> the house rules /Xp level/and general flavor of cheese.
>> I'm not particually sure that PC deserves an award for
>> power-gaming the system like that, but it did make for
>> some interesting role-playing afterwards.
>>
>> > I say this because my main character IS Block Guy (started 3/4/4,
>> > block 4,
>> > Maka Wara, Block to Fierce, etc.), and lemme tell you, I thought
>> that
>> > Block
>> > to Fierce and Maka Wara was da bomb on paper... NOT.
>> >
>> Funny, all the PCs/NPCs I make w/ Make Wara seem to
>> come out the same way... Cool on paper yet sucking wind
>> in the ring... Still don't know why that is. Whenever it's used
>> against me, it seems like it's just the most abusable move
>> out there. (No, Not really, but you get my drift)
>>
>> > For more
>> > drawbacks of the Block-To-Whatever combo check out Steve's page,
>> where
>> > I rant some more.
>> >
>> Actually, that brings out another frustration I've come accross
>> as a player. Really, deep down I don't have a problem w/
>> blocking in any way. I've always felt it's pretty balanced,
>> even w/ the all the bonuses it gives, simply because there
>> are simple & obvious ways around someone who blocks
>> all the time. (Throws, Grapples, 'Overhead' hits, etc etc...)
>> But for the life of me, I have yet to figure out a good counter
>> when someone's Drunken Monkey Rolling (DMR) around the ring.
>> So far, about the best thing I've found to do is taunt them.
>> I suppose if I felt really cool, I could try to Thunderclap or
>> Stunning Shout them.. No, wait Thunderclap has a range,
>> and Stunning shout has to be faster to make them lose
>> their action that round.... Uh, does anyone have a good
>> counter for someone who's gonna sit there, DMR, DMR, DMR,
>> maybe come in for a single fast grab or knockdown,
>> (Combo DMR to Something to DMR) and then
>> DMRs away until time runs out. Since DMR gets a fireball
>> dodge, you can't really projectile them to death, and
>> it's SUPER frustrating when you know what he's gonna do,
>> and yet can't think of a single good action to do to make him
>> stop. I mean, aside from like a Block to Jab (or similar speed)
>> combo, Executed at the right time, I can't think of anything
>> to really stop this. Now, granted, PCs who try this strategy
>> end up w/ glories of zero, and are near useless in
>> big group fights, but it does get the wins in the ring...
>> I dunno.
>> Just my ramblings... Anyone got some suggestions? Anyone
>> running this differently so it's not a problem?
>>
>> > Really, everything is balanced out (except that stupid Cartwheel
>> Kick)
>> > as
>> > written in the rules. Same goes for the Abort to Jump vs Abort to
>> > Move.
>> > Jump is an instinctive defense, i.e. you see a car rushing at you,
>> you
>> > JUMP
>> > away, not turn around and walk. The maneuver point reflects the
>> time
>> > spent
>> > into refining the jump so that it works all the time, without
>> falling
>> > like
>> > an idiot, in stressful combat situations.
>> >
>> Good point. But some characters wouldn't naturally 'jump' away
>> from a grappler when they go for the Spinning Pile Driver.
>> (Or an oncomming Cadilac for that matter) I know
>> a drunken-master would rather sorta sway around in that
>> drunken stupor they do so well & end up 'behind' him (or it).
>> That's not a Jump, but certainly a feasible abort
>> for a character that doesn't even walk straight. Yeah,
>> I realize that's more like Duck n Weave, but you get
>> my picture. Some characters don't buy jump for Role-Playing
>> reasons, and somehow
>> it doesn't seem fair to punish them & make them buy a maneuver
>> that doesn't fit the character, for something that anyone should
>> be able to do (Abort to a maneuver that lets you escape a grab)
>> I mean, anyone who wants to limit themselves by not buying
>> Jump deserves SOME breaks IMO.
>>
>> A-ways, just my 2 cents. Well, looking at the size of this,
>> maybe a little more than 2 cents. Any comments anyone? (Except
>> for how cheesy our game must have been to let a rank 3
>> beat Sagat. I know it was Chedar & freely admit it, it's just
>> the way we play sometimes =))
>> -Talk at ya Laters!
>> -Chris!
>>
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>
>Haha. Well, Maka Wara guys just suck because, well, blocking sucks.
>Block guy has a lot of problems, usually because they tend not to do a
>whole lot of damage, their fights are boring, and people eventually
>figure things out... when they get some glory, or after an opponent
>has
>fought them, they know what to expect, so plan to see some monkey grab
>punches coming up. And just look out for Block to Elbow Smash...
>perfect cheese out maneuver. Of course, the enemy can do it too...
>
>Drunken Monkey Roll guy is just going to lose glory and not be invited
>to some of the better tournaments. Honor, donno... technically no one
>has a "weakness" to DMR, but you certainly wouldn't be getting much
>honor for those fights. This falls under the "Chicken Fighter"
>category
>on Steve's page.
>
>Block to Jab... well, what can you do, it exists, and there's not much
>to be done about it, but it's just one of those things. Plus, who
>cares
>about the speed 9 jab coming in, when it's interrupting a speed -1
>buffalo punch? There's a balance for everything.
>
>
>
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"Well, my name is Joshua Rogers, I'm a player who is soon to be a GM,
and
I'm in Naples, Florida. BTW, I'm searching for a copy of Secrets of
Shadoloo, if you know a place to get one, or a person willing to part
with one, I'm willing to pay up to three times cover price for it."

- can someone help this boy out? SK


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Ryan M Rich wrote:

>
> I don't think it should be possible to have Maka Wara be used in
> a dizzy combo. Thats just plain foolishness. silly
>

I see no problem with it. It's only a die or two in most cases and
technically it does turn a Block into a damaging maneuver.

> Good question.
> Dashing punch, Any hurricane kick-type maneuver, preferably a
> very fast one.
>
> >Actually, that brings out another frustration I've come accross
> >as a player. Really, deep down I don't have a problem w/
> >blocking in any way. I've always felt it's pretty balanced,
> >even w/ the all the bonuses it gives, simply because there
> >are simple & obvious ways around someone who blocks
> >all the time. (Throws, Grapples, 'Overhead' hits, etc etc...)
> >But for the life of me, I have yet to figure out a good counter
> >when someone's Drunken Monkey Rolling (DMR) around the ring.
>

Drunken Monkey Rolling constantly is called "chickenshit combat".
Fighters who engage in footraces instead of fistfights deserve to lose
honor and/or glory at the gamemaster's discretion. not to mention that
fighting on a team merely means that you've dodged one guy and set
yourself up to be Buffalo Punched by his teammate.

> And I'm sick about Cartwheel kick, see my page for the stats it should
> have (IMHO)
> wwwgeocitiescom/TimesSquare/Ring/9913
>

Cartwheel Kick is so easy to deal with, I don't see why it still causes
people to panic. the only time I ever had a problem with it was when
the player using it was cheating in about five different ways (and he
still couldn't get around the safeguards I had in place).

here's why it ain't that hot;

Maka Wara. If I'm blocking and you CWK me, I'm damaging you, on the
average, as much as you're damaging me.
it's a straight-line maneuver. step to one side and whoops, he can't
hit you.
it costs Willpower. I've got many maneuvers set up so that just to
perform them requires their cost... IE, Rolling Attack. the second
you're moving, you spend your willpower because you're already 'in' the
maneuver. ditto CWK. the second you CWK and leave your hex, your
willpower is gone. sucks if your opponent jumps out of the way. hope
your Honor is 10 or so to get it all back, and hope you don't have to
abort.
it blows in enclosed spaces. read the description of the move. "*for
each hex the opponent is knocked back* he suffers one damage test at the
modifiers below." can't knock him back? can't damage him. walls are
lovely for this, as are raised arena floors and simple boundary rules.

now, as Howard is prolly gonna say, as he usually does... "well then why
take something like Tumbling Attack, which costs so much more, than CWK,
which doesn't?" Well for one thing, Tumbling Attack is a straight
Athletics maneuver, and it's cheaper to crunch out one technique than
two, and as we know, CWK requires a good Athletics and a good Kick to
use. Second, Tumble is a Crouching Maneuver, which means it is immune
to Aerial maneuvers. CWK is not. Third, Tumble is good for the styles
that have it (and Backflip, its prerequisite) cheaply, unlike the CWK,
as Capoeristas and Spanish Ninja are likely to have Athletics out the
wazoo. Also, Tumble is immune to Maka Wara, because it's an Athletics
Maneuver. CWK is not and is usually an even trade in damage rolls.

> ryanmrich
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
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Steve 'Doom Trooper' Karstensen wrote:

> Ryan M Rich wrote:
> >
> > I don't think it should be possible to have Maka Wara be used in
> > a dizzy combo. Thats just plain foolishness. silly
> >
>
> I see no problem with it. It's only a die or two in most cases and
> technically it does turn a Block into a damaging maneuver.
>

And the poor guy spend 3 or 4 maneuver points on it, when he could have gotten
a Dragon Punch or something. There's nothing in the rules that states it
would not combine for dizzying, so why say it wouldn't? For example: Maka
Wara/Deflecting Punch to Lightning Leg (Dizzy). The guy fierces you, and
crunches his hand against your block while your hand comes out and raps him at
the same time; this is disconcerting, and he doesn't have time to get over it
before you kick him a hundred times in the face. This is what the dizzy combo
is about: combining all your damage in such a startling and quick way that
the enemy is staggered by the onslaught.

> >Actually, that brings out another frustration I've come accross

> > >as a player. Really, deep down I don't have a problem w/
> > >blocking in any way. I've always felt it's pretty balanced,
> > >even w/ the all the bonuses it gives, simply because there
> > >are simple & obvious ways around someone who blocks
> > >all the time. (Throws, Grapples, 'Overhead' hits, etc etc...)
> > >But for the life of me, I have yet to figure out a good counter
> > >when someone's Drunken Monkey Rolling (DMR) around the ring.
> >
>
> Drunken Monkey Rolling constantly is called "chickenshit combat".
> Fighters who engage in footraces instead of fistfights deserve to lose
> honor and/or glory at the gamemaster's discretion. not to mention that
> fighting on a team merely means that you've dodged one guy and set
> yourself up to be Buffalo Punched by his teammate.
>

Hehe, or "Squirrel Fighting".

> > And I'm sick about Cartwheel kick, see my page for the stats it should
> > have (IMHO)
> > wwwgeocitiescom/TimesSquare/Ring/9913
> >
>

The revised Cartwheel Kick as outlined by Steve Wieck is posted somewhere on
Steve Karstensen's goofy page.

> Cartwheel Kick is so easy to deal with, I don't see why it still causes
> people to panic. the only time I ever had a problem with it was when
> the player using it was cheating in about five different ways (and he
> still couldn't get around the safeguards I had in place).
>
> here's why it ain't that hot;
>
> Maka Wara. If I'm blocking and you CWK me, I'm damaging you, on the
> average, as much as you're damaging me.
> it's a straight-line maneuver. step to one side and whoops, he can't
> hit you.

One of the few instances where Maka Wara is really worth the insane cost.

> it costs Willpower. I've got many maneuvers set up so that just to
> perform them requires their cost... IE, Rolling Attack. the second
> you're moving, you spend your willpower because you're already 'in' the
> maneuver. ditto CWK. the second you CWK and leave your hex, your
> willpower is gone. sucks if your opponent jumps out of the way. hope
> your Honor is 10 or so to get it all back, and hope you don't have to
> abort.

Experienced fighters will know about a zillion tricks for getting out of a
CWK, DDK, whatever... using these maneuvers effectively at higher levels
becomes a matter of timing.

> it blows in enclosed spaces. read the description of the move. "*for
> each hex the opponent is knocked back* he suffers one damage test at the
> modifiers below." can't knock him back? can't damage him. walls are
> lovely for this, as are raised arena floors and simple boundary rules.
>
> now, as Howard is prolly gonna say, as he usually does... "well then why
> take something like Tumbling Attack, which costs so much more, than CWK,
> which doesn't?" Well for one thing, Tumbling Attack is a straight
> Athletics maneuver, and it's cheaper to crunch out one technique than
> two, and as we know, CWK requires a good Athletics and a good Kick to
> use. Second, Tumble is a Crouching Maneuver, which means it is immune
> to Aerial maneuvers. CWK is not. Third, Tumble is good for the styles
> that have it (and Backflip, its prerequisite) cheaply, unlike the CWK,
> as Capoeristas and Spanish Ninja are likely to have Athletics out the
> wazoo. Also, Tumble is immune to Maka Wara, because it's an Athletics
> Maneuver. CWK is not and is usually an even trade in damage rolls.
>

Bah big deal. The CWK is still insanely unbalancing. Everyone and his
grandmother can take it right away, and at higher levels of combat (which
someone will have to be at in order to get a tumbling attack anyway) the CWK
guy, who has enjoyed the short-term advantages up to this point, is going to
have sicko kick and athletics anyway, so it's STILL better. The crouching
thing is a double-edged sword, it means that yeah you aren't going to be hit
by aerial maneuvers, but neigher are you going to hit anyone in the air. As
for CWK being even vs. Maka Wara guy... well how often are you going to run
into someone insane enough to have maka wara anyway, and is he going to be
Stamina 5/Block 5 guy with kick defense? Only if he's nuts. 8P




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> ----------
> From: Steve 'Doom Trooper'
> Karstensen[SMTP:skarsten@...]
> Sent: Friday, July 31, 1998 7:53 AM
> To: streetfighter@...
> Subject: [streetfighter] [Fwd: Streetfighter Player List]
>
> "Well, my name is Joshua Rogers, I'm a player who is soon to be a GM,
> and
> I'm in Naples, Florida. BTW, I'm searching for a copy of Secrets of
> Shadoloo, if you know a place to get one, or a person willing to part
> with one, I'm willing to pay up to three times cover price for it."
>
> - can someone help this boy out? SK
>

Actually, Yeah,
I'm up here in Seattle, and I had 20 minutes or so to kill before my
friend showed up for a movie, so I walked accross the street
to this gaming store I had heard about.... Sifting thru the
pile of crap they had, I came accross a real find.
They had about 10 copies of SoS, about another 6 Perfect Warriors,
and about 2 dozen or so SF GM-screens. For some reason or
other, they didn't have a single copy of any of the 'basic' books,
but they had a whole stack of these 3.
A-ways, it's kinda far from my place, but I plan on heading down
there again sometime... If anyone here needs ANY of these,
LMK, I'll gladly send them to you. The store is selling them
for cover price ($10? I think?) So add a couple of bucks
for shipping oughta cover ya.
-Aways.
Talk at ya laters!
-Chris!



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Steve Karsten's goofy [age, hahaha (all of ourSF:STG pages are
goofy)

Speaking of would any of you that have Street Fighter pages send
your URL, I'll start it off.

The Street Fighter's Dojo www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/9913/

Ryan M Rich (leonardsmalls@...)

>The revised Cartwheel Kick as outlined by Steve Wieck is posted
>somewhere on
>Steve Karstensen's goofy page.

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Well, another Street Fighter player in SW FL, I'm so enthused. I'm Ryan
Rich and I live in Bonita Springs, plus I have secrets of Shadol(aw) but
you can't have it. I'll let you see it though. Maybe we could get
together to play sometime?

RYANmRICH
Why's everybody always picking on me?


.

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:53:04 -0400 "Steve 'Doom Trooper' Karstensen"
<skarsten@...> writes:

>"Well, my name is Joshua Rogers, I'm a player who is soon to be a GM,
>and
>I'm in Naples, Florida. BTW, I'm searching for a copy of Secrets of
>Shadoloo, if you know a place to get one, or a person willing to part
>with one, I'm willing to pay up to three times cover price for it."
>
>- can someone help this boy out? SK
>
>
>----
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>http://www.makelist.com/list/streetfighter/
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Steve Karsten's goofy [age, hahaha (all of ourSF:STG pages are
goofy)

Speaking of would any of you that have Street Fighter pages send
your URL, I'll start it off.

The Street Fighter's Dojo www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/9913/

Ryan M Rich (leonardsmalls@...)

>The revised Cartwheel Kick as outlined by Steve Wieck is posted
>somewhere on
>Steve Karstensen's goofy page.

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Well, another Street Fighter player in SW FL, I'm so enthused. I'm Ryan
Rich and I live in Bonita Springs, plus I have secrets of Shadol(aw) but
you can't have it. I'll let you see it though. Maybe we could get
together to play sometime?

RYANmRICH
Why's everybody always picking on me?


.

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:53:04 -0400 "Steve 'Doom Trooper' Karstensen"
<skarsten@...> writes:

>"Well, my name is Joshua Rogers, I'm a player who is soon to be a GM,
>and
>I'm in Naples, Florida. BTW, I'm searching for a copy of Secrets of
>Shadoloo, if you know a place to get one, or a person willing to part
>with one, I'm willing to pay up to three times cover price for it."
>
>- can someone help this boy out? SK
>
>
>----
>Read this list on the Web at
>http://www.makelist.com/list/streetfighter/
>To unsubscribe, email to streetfighter-unsubscribe@...
>To subscribe, email to streetfighter-subscribe@...
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Ryan M Rich wrote:

>
> Steve Karsten's goofy [age, hahaha (all of ourSF:STG pages are
> goofy)
>
> Speaking of would any of you that have Street Fighter pages send
> your URL, I'll start it off.
>
> The Street Fighter's Dojo www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/9913/

Street Fighter Central
http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/skarsten/sfcent~1.htm

this is a good idea. it'll help me compile my links page.

>
> Ryan M Rich (leonardsmalls@...)
>
> >The revised Cartwheel Kick as outlined by Steve Wieck is posted
> >somewhere on
> >Steve Karstensen's goofy page.
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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I'll admit I probably am missing half the arguement here, but I'll toss
my two cents in- at least that way I can find out if they're worth
anything, right?

Regarding Maka Wara in combos- From the description, Maka Wara is a
passive maneuver- they take damage from hitting you, not the other way
around. Putting it into a combo is like saying "Yeah, I beat him up by
repeatedly smashing my jaw into his fist."

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Exactly. Of course, you would have to be an idiot to take
Block-Block-Block (Dizzy), but why remove the damage from a dizzy
combo? If you have ever seen real Iron Vest practicioners, one of the
great things IS the startling effect on someone who hits them. Or, more
commonly, Muay Thai leg blockers. Those mofos are scary... the block is
them slamming a shinbone into your leg. Think of it more as an
aggressive parry a la GURPS martial arts.

Joshua Rogers wrote:

> I'll admit I probably am missing half the arguement here, but I'll
> toss
> my two cents in- at least that way I can find out if they're worth
> anything, right?
>
> Regarding Maka Wara in combos- From the description, Maka Wara is a
> passive maneuver- they take damage from hitting you, not the other way
>
> around. Putting it into a combo is like saying "Yeah, I beat him up by
>
> repeatedly smashing my jaw into his fist."
>
> ______________________________________________________
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I'll toss in another two cents regarding CWK (did I mention I collect
pennies?). From what I see, the most devastating use of CWK is in
combos, particularly block to CWK combos. Alright- going with easy to
get maneuvers, I'll show how I'd get past it. Somebody you know does
this combo (the manager background is great for finding this stuff out)
and goes into a block. Okay- abort to move, straight line away from
them. Insane? Not yet. So CWK goes off, and comes flying at you end over
end. Most of their movement and damage rolls bleed off getting to you,
and finally hits your block (you did block, right?). You take one or two
damage. Now, using your own +4 speed, add it onto Elbow Smash- a +2
Speed +2 Damage maneuver. Crack. Against you average guy doing this with
high Dex, high Athletics, and you having a reasonable Strength and
Punch, you ought to dizzy him. His combo's toast. And for those of you
who want to drive some sense into Mr. Speed, take the -1 honor and
introduce him to the Knee Basher.

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Jeezu. I feel like I've been standing in a forest looking for a tree.
;o) Actually, if you've got this Sunday free, we've got a campaign
going- and amazingly enough it's one without anything like Block to
Cartwheel Kick dizzy combos. Very smooth running, and we're using just
the books.

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I do not have my SF books anywhere near me currently (Only at my parents
place 2 hours away), but I always figured that Maka Wara was an active
ability. You have to concentrate and focus in order to physically and
psychologically toughen yourself, so in my opinion the move can be used as
a block or combo maneuver, but does not get the block bonus that normal
blocks and deflecting maneuvers receive. Also Maka Wara cannot be used in
conjunction with other maneuvers such as the defleching maneuvers.

My 2 cents

Micheal Duynhoven
jarlath@...
justin@...


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As defined in the book Maka Wara is a passive function of blocking, and
it combines with all blocks.

Oh one thing I remembered which may be unbalancing, I don't think Maka
Wara damage is cxalculated from the extra soak you get from moves like
punch defense or kick defense, so although you have stamina 5 block 4
and sock the kick at 13, you maka wara only does 6. There is reason to
say that San He adds to the damage, but that's subjective.

Hmm why is everyone so hard on maka wara? It sucks enough as it is!

Micheal Duynhoven wrote:

> I do not have my SF books anywhere near me currently (Only at my
> parents
> place 2 hours away), but I always figured that Maka Wara was an active
>
> ability. You have to concentrate and focus in order to physically and
> psychologically toughen yourself, so in my opinion the move can be
> used as
> a block or combo maneuver, but does not get the block bonus that
> normal
> blocks and deflecting maneuvers receive. Also Maka Wara cannot be used
> in
> conjunction with other maneuvers such as the defleching maneuvers.
>
> My 2 cents
>
> Micheal Duynhoven
> jarlath@...
> justin@...
>
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Maka Wara is calculated using Stamina plus Block Technique. Toughskin
increases Soak, which uses Stamina, but is not the same thing.

Maka Wara is not cheap. If you get a power-gaming munchkin who thinks
he can make everyone break their hands against his face, introduce him
to a few wrestlers. Maka Wara does not work against Athletics maneuvers
or Grabs. A few Air Smashes and Improved Pins/Spinning Pile Drivers
later, he'll wish he didn't put all his points into overloading his Maka
Wara die pool. He sure won't be able to mount any kind of offensive
given the number of points he'd have to blow to raise his damage dice to
the level you suggest.

Next problem? :)


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> As defined in the book Maka Wara is a passive function of blocking,
> and
> it combines with all blocks.
>
> Oh one thing I remembered which may be unbalancing, I don't think Maka
> Wara damage is cxalculated from the extra soak you get from moves like
> punch defense or kick defense, so although you have stamina 5 block 4
> and sock the kick at 13, you maka wara only does 6. There is reason
> to
> say that San He adds to the damage, but that's subjective.
>
> Hmm why is everyone so hard on maka wara? It sucks enough as it is!
>

I think the reason everyone is so down on Maka Wara is the 'cheap'
factor it can generate. Yeah, it does truly suck for a
'normal' character. A dude w/ a Stamina 5 & a Block 4
isn't doing squat with it. For him, it's pretty well useless.
BUT, when you put it w/ a power-gamer, suddenly it can
become the maneuver of death. When the Brick w/
the 7Stamina 6Block gets Maka Wara, he's got a 10 die attack!
At that point, it stops being defensive, and really becomes
more offensive. Especially since he'll be doing more
damage to you than you do to him if you attack. A-ways, my point
is, in a normal game, no, it isn't all that bad. But it can
be abused, and when it is, it suddenly becomes really powerful.
And that's why most people don't care for it. Cheap characters
take it, therefore it must be a cheesy maneuver. 'Course,
you can say that about alot of maneuvers... Just depends
on which ones your group abuses 1st. heh.

Curiosity question. We all know that Maka Wara damage is
your char's Block + Sta (good point about Deflecting P/K Howard)
Does anyone here add in toughskin? I know we don't, but
our group had an argument about it a long time ago, & was
wondering if anyone out there used the 2 in combination.

-Laters
-Chris!




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Nelson, Christopher T wrote:

> I think the reason everyone is so down on Maka Wara is the 'cheap'
> factor it can generate. Yeah, it does truly suck for a
> 'normal' character. A dude w/ a Stamina 5 & a Block 4
> isn't doing squat with it. For him, it's pretty well useless.
> BUT, when you put it w/ a power-gamer, suddenly it can
> become the maneuver of death. When the Brick w/
> the 7Stamina 6Block gets Maka Wara, he's got a 10 die attack!
> At that point, it stops being defensive, and really becomes
> more offensive. Especially since he'll be doing more
> damage to you than you do to him if you attack. A-ways, my point
> is, in a normal game, no, it isn't all that bad. But it can
> be abused, and when it is, it suddenly becomes really powerful.
> And that's why most people don't care for it. Cheap characters
> take it, therefore it must be a cheesy maneuver. 'Course,
> you can say that about alot of maneuvers... Just depends
> on which ones your group abuses 1st. heh.

Good lord, Stamina 7 Block 6! Bah, I have the solution: DON'T HAVE MONTY
HAUL CAMPAIGNS! Jeeze, it takes an unbelievable amount of points to get to
that level... still, at that point you could say almost anything is
abusive... hmm Strength 7 Punch 6 Dragon Punch... waaah DP is abusive! The
abuse is not in the maneuver (which is pretty tame actually) but in the
campaign itself. Hmm as far as cheap characters taking it... if you are
starting a new Rank One guy and want him to be cheap and good, you are NOT
going to be taking Maka Waras. You'll be taking Block to Elbow Smash and
Head Bite... things that actually do damage to people.

>
>
> Curiosity question. We all know that Maka Wara damage is
> your char's Block + Sta (good point about Deflecting P/K Howard)
> Does anyone here add in toughskin? I know we don't, but
> our group had an argument about it a long time ago, & was
> wondering if anyone out there used the 2 in combination.
>
> -Laters
> -Chris!

I could see that... since Toughskin is another passive effect, and is also
defined as hardening the skin and bones and such. At this point, people
willl say, "But then Block Guy will be using San He and Toughskin with a
Block to do lots of damage!" Yah... if his opponent is dumb enough to fall
for it and he really wants to spend 2 chi on a round where he might be
completely useless if someone suplexes him or just doesn't attack.

All this stuff is really subjective of course... I'm just tossing out some
stuff which I've used and worked on and talked about with GM's, players and
Steve Wieck (I have 4 dots in Name Dropping 8P) . Really, after I had
figured out the counter to most of the "cheap" maneuvers, none of them seem
all that cheap anymore (except that stupid moronic Cartwheel Kick). If your
players think Block to Elbow Smash is so hot, just remember their enemies
can do it too, or better yet, take the shot while they Buffalo Punch them at
speed 0. "Dex doesn't matter!"

I gotta say though, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone consider
Maka Wara as a "cheap" maneuver.



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Howard Collins wrote:

>

> Good lord, Stamina 7 Block 6! Bah, I have the solution: DON'T HAVE MONTY
> HAUL CAMPAIGNS! Jeeze, it takes an unbelievable amount of points to get to
> that level... still, at that point you could say almost anything is

agreed. I have a character in my campaign who has a 7 Dex...
of course, we've been playing for about a year and all of his other
stats are mediocre because he's been stockpiling his points to raise it.
Now he wants to go for Dex 8. I keep telling him to raise his Kick
beyond a two (He's Wu Shu) but we don't call him 'Fog' for nothin'.
Just to note that I usually give out the max recommended XP for a
session (around 5 or so), so that you can get a feel for a good rate of
advancement. Of course, since we rarely have tournaments (sessions are
pretty short) they're all still like Rank Four.

Steve Weick is a pretty good guy and still likes Street Fighter. You'd
be surprised... seems to me like White Wolf doesn't even want to admit
they had it as a product sometimes. I interviewed him a while ago for
my site... if I ever get the damn time I'll post it. All my free time's
been going toward coding my Q2 mod lately or partying in NYC.

>
> >
> >
>
> I could see that... since Toughskin is another passive effect, and is also
> defined as hardening the skin and bones and such. At this point, people
> willl say, "But then Block Guy will be using San He and Toughskin with a
> Block to do lots of damage!" Yah... if his opponent is dumb enough to fall
> for it and he really wants to spend 2 chi on a round where he might be
> completely useless if someone suplexes him or just doesn't attack.
>

exactly. Any smart fighter may fall for it once, tops. Unless of
course he's also a one-trick wonder and can't do anything *but* Elbow
Smash against Block Guy's Maka Wara all day.

> All this stuff is really subjective of course... I'm just tossing out some
> stuff which I've used and worked on and talked about with GM's, players and
> Steve Wieck (I have 4 dots in Name Dropping 8P) . Really, after I had
> figured out the counter to most of the "cheap" maneuvers, none of them seem
> all that cheap anymore (except that stupid moronic Cartwheel Kick). If your

...and as I've proven, Cartwheel Kick isn't even as bad as most people
think. If you don't know the way to get around something it may seem
imbalancing, but it rarely is the maneuver itself and is usually a
combination of other factors.

> players think Block to Elbow Smash is so hot, just remember their enemies
> can do it too, or better yet, take the shot while they Buffalo Punch them at
> speed 0. "Dex doesn't matter!"
>
> I gotta say though, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone consider
> Maka Wara as a "cheap" maneuver.
>

maybe we should make my Rulings Page required reading for all SF
newbies. :) I'll be reorganizing it soon... any suggestions, just send
'em my way.

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Howard Collins wrote:

>

> Good lord, Stamina 7 Block 6! Bah, I have the solution: DON'T HAVE MONTY
> HAUL CAMPAIGNS! Jeeze, it takes an unbelievable amount of points to get to
> that level... still, at that point you could say almost anything is

agreed. I have a character in my campaign who has a 7 Dex...
of course, we've been playing for about a year and all of his other
stats are mediocre because he's been stockpiling his points to raise it.
Now he wants to go for Dex 8. I keep telling him to raise his Kick
beyond a two (He's Wu Shu) but we don't call him 'Fog' for nothin'.
Just to note that I usually give out the max recommended XP for a
session (around 5 or so), so that you can get a feel for a good rate of
advancement. Of course, since we rarely have tournaments (sessions are
pretty short) they're all still like Rank Four.

Steve Weick is a pretty good guy and still likes Street Fighter. You'd
be surprised... seems to me like White Wolf doesn't even want to admit
they had it as a product sometimes. I interviewed him a while ago for
my site... if I ever get the damn time I'll post it. All my free time's
been going toward coding my Q2 mod lately or partying in NYC.

>
> >
> >
>
> I could see that... since Toughskin is another passive effect, and is also
> defined as hardening the skin and bones and such. At this point, people
> willl say, "But then Block Guy will be using San He and Toughskin with a
> Block to do lots of damage!" Yah... if his opponent is dumb enough to fall
> for it and he really wants to spend 2 chi on a round where he might be
> completely useless if someone suplexes him or just doesn't attack.
>

exactly. Any smart fighter may fall for it once, tops. Unless of
course he's also a one-trick wonder and can't do anything *but* Elbow
Smash against Block Guy's Maka Wara all day.

> All this stuff is really subjective of course... I'm just tossing out some
> stuff which I've used and worked on and talked about with GM's, players and
> Steve Wieck (I have 4 dots in Name Dropping 8P) . Really, after I had
> figured out the counter to most of the "cheap" maneuvers, none of them seem
> all that cheap anymore (except that stupid moronic Cartwheel Kick). If your

...and as I've proven, Cartwheel Kick isn't even as bad as most people
think. If you don't know the way to get around something it may seem
imbalancing, but it rarely is the maneuver itself and is usually a
combination of other factors.

> players think Block to Elbow Smash is so hot, just remember their enemies
> can do it too, or better yet, take the shot while they Buffalo Punch them at
> speed 0. "Dex doesn't matter!"
>
> I gotta say though, this is the first time I've ever heard anyone consider
> Maka Wara as a "cheap" maneuver.
>

maybe we should make my Rulings Page required reading for all SF
newbies. :) I'll be reorganizing it soon... any suggestions, just send
'em my way.

speaking of cheap... what about Elbow Smash? Fast as a Jab and hits
harder than a Strong? Sure it's not maneuverable but it's fast enough
that you can wait for your opponent to close (he'll prolly be going
first) and is nearly unavoidable. Thoughts?

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---Steve 'Doom Trooper' Karstensen <skarsten@...>
wrote:

> maybe we should make my Rulings Page required reading for

all SF

> newbies. :) I'll be reorganizing it soon... any

suggestions, just send

> 'em my way.

You know, we have been getting a lot of newbies lately (Not
as many as I would like, but more than before), maybe it's
time for us to make a faq for this list.

> speaking of cheap... what about Elbow Smash? Fast as a

Jab and hits

> harder than a Strong? Sure it's not maneuverable but it's

fast enough

> that you can wait for your opponent to close (he'll prolly

be going

> first) and is nearly unavoidable. Thoughts?

Personaly, I think it's perfectly balanced by it's lack of
mobility. It makes it just this side of useless against
projectilests (is that a word?), gunslingers, and people who
like to throw your team-mates at you. (That's why I like
throw better than suplex in big fights.)

===
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merely expect them to try."
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Chris Hoffmann wrote:

>
> You know, we have been getting a lot of newbies lately (Not
> as many as I would like, but more than before), maybe it's
> time for us to make a faq for this list.
>

I've been wanting to make an SF FAQ for my site for ages, but last time
I put forth a call for questions to put on it, no one replied.
Personally, I can't think of any apart from issues I've dealt with in
the Gaming section of SF Central. perhaps the FAQ could just point to
my site. hehe. that'd be too arrogant of me.


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Something that my group recently decided to do was expand the list of
available Abort maneuvers. Why? Well, mostly because there are those
maneuvers which are utterly useless unless you, not your character,
have Mind Reading. The maneuvers we added are as follows:
Air Throw
Punch/Kick/Grappling Defense
San He
Vertical Rolling Attack
Flying Knee Thrust (I disagree with them on this one)
Power Uppercut (Ditto)
Elemental Stride/Backflip/Teleport/Pool
San He could be argued as useful for when you decide to block- but since
the example mentions getting hit by a car or bus (which doesn't usually
give you time to react, really) we thought it could be done reactively,
like a block. Air Throw and Vertical Rolling attack rely on an airborne
opponent, which means you have to know an opponent is going to jump- and
if you mess up once, or they've done any research on you, you'll never
get to use it. Flying Knee Thrust was argued in by a player saying it
didn't do much damage and left you sitting in front of the enemy, so the
only good was against jumpers for the knockdown. Power Uppercut was
added for the same reason- which since it's a 1 Move Fierce Punch, I can
see. The other maneuvers we added because they're all movement oriented,
so seemed fitting to put in.

The one thing I can see wrong with these (besides my objections)was
something I badgered them into modifying- Air Throw could easily become
a 'twink' move. So, you can't Abort to it unless you're already in the
air (such as Aborting from a Jumping Roundhouse) or if the jumper passes
over your hex, these being the only situations I've been able to use it
in the games.

Any comments?

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Steve 'Doom Trooper' Karsten
Street Fighter Central
home.sprynet.com/sprynet/skarsten/sfcent~1.htm
Ryan M. Rich
The Street Fighter's Dojo
geocities.com/TimesSquare/Ring/9913/sf-dojo.htm
Chris Hoffmann
????
www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1062

well thats it so far

ryan

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---Joshua Rogers <tkshockwave@...> wrote:

>
> Something that my group recently decided to do was expand

the list of

> available Abort maneuvers. Why? Well, mostly because there

are those

> maneuvers which are utterly useless unless you, not your

character,

> have Mind Reading. The maneuvers we added are as follows:

> Air Throw

Be careful with this one. Even if you only abort to it from
other aerial attacks, it still could be abusive. But, if
you do allow it, then you should add air suplex (from
secrets of shadoloo) to the list.

> Punch/Kick/Grappling Defense

Since they are already blocks, they should already be
abortable (same with missile reflection and energy
reflection). Grappling Defense should definately be
abortable.

> San He

See above

> Vertical Rolling Attack

I disagree with this one.

> Flying Knee Thrust (I disagree with them on this one)

This move is well balanced already. It doesn't need to be
abortable.

> Power Uppercut (Ditto)

Since it's so quick and easy in the video game, a case could
be made I suppose. (Same with handstand kick)

> Elemental Stride/Backflip/Teleport/Pool

I'm not up on the elemental manuvers but I don't think
backflip or teleprt should be abortable.

> San He could be argued as useful for when you decide to

block- but since

> the example mentions getting hit by a car or bus (which

doesn't usually

> give you time to react, really) we thought it could be

done reactively,

> like a block. Air Throw and Vertical Rolling attack rely

on an airborne

> opponent, which means you have to know an opponent is

going to jump- and

> if you mess up once, or they've done any research on you,

you'll never

> get to use it. Flying Knee Thrust was argued in by a

player saying it

> didn't do much damage and left you sitting in front of the

enemy, so the

> only good was against jumpers for the knockdown. Power

Uppercut was

> added for the same reason- which since it's a 1 Move

Fierce Punch, I can

> see. The other maneuvers we added because they're all

movement oriented,

> so seemed fitting to put in.
>
> The one thing I can see wrong with these (besides my

objections)was

> something I badgered them into modifying- Air Throw could

easily become

> a 'twink' move. So, you can't Abort to it unless you're

already in the

> air (such as Aborting from a Jumping Roundhouse) or if the

jumper passes

> over your hex, these being the only situations I've been

able to use it

> in the games.
>
> Any comments?

Something to concider is keeping the list as is (or even
adding to it) FOR THE STORYTELLER ONLY. This will allow you
to simulate the cheeze of the videogame and make you end
fights a lot harder.

===
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merely expect them to try."
-- Robert Heinlein

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Chris Hoffmann wrote:

>
> ---Joshua Rogers <tkshockwave@...> wrote:
> >
> > Something that my group recently decided to do was expand
> the list of

> > Air Throw
>
> Be careful with this one. Even if you only abort to it from
> other aerial attacks, it still could be abusive. But, if
> you do allow it, then you should add air suplex (from
> secrets of shadoloo) to the list.
>

agreed. Considering it's 1 WP for the Abort and 1 WP for the Air Throw,
it'll drain even a 10 WP fighter quick. Air Suplex, on the other hand,
is so slow it'll be highly difficult to use on anyone, even as an abort.
That's why it don't cost anything.

> > Punch/Kick/Grappling Defense
>
> Since they are already blocks, they should already be
> abortable (same with missile reflection and energy
> reflection). Grappling Defense should definately be
> abortable.

Grappling Defense is not a Block. It's a Grab move. I can see it
falling under that category for aborts though.

>
>
> > Vertical Rolling Attack
>
> I disagree with this one.

I do too. You may as well allow any maneuver with Jump as a prereq if
that's the case.

>
> > Flying Knee Thrust (I disagree with them on this one)
>
> This move is well balanced already. It doesn't need to be
> abortable.
>

exactly.

>
> > Elemental Stride/Backflip/Teleport/Pool
>
> I'm not up on the elemental manuvers but I don't think
> backflip or teleprt should be abortable.
>

agreed. and as far as the Elemental powers listed... Pool is a
powerhouse maneuver simply because there's no cost, no duration,
and makes the fighter immune to anything but energy attacks. Making it
an abort maneuver is just asking for abuse.

> > San He could be argued as useful for when you decide to
> block- but since
> > the example mentions getting hit by a car or bus (which
> doesn't usually
> > give you time to react, really) we thought it could be
> done reactively,

they mentioned the getting hit by a bus incident as a bit of a rude
surprise against the person who is trying to run you down. I say you
have to prep yourself for something that nasty, though... you need to
know the car is coming and adopt the right stance and concentrate your
Chi. no aborting here.

> > like a block. Air Throw and Vertical Rolling attack rely
> on an airborne
> > opponent, which means you have to know an opponent is
> going to jump- and
> > if you mess up once, or they've done any research on you,
> you'll never
> > get to use it.

have a teammate try and Spinning-Pile-Drive an enemy, watch that enemy
abort to a Jump, then laugh as you Air Throw him. it's called teamwork.

granted, in a one-on-one, it probably isn't as useful, but when was the
last time you saw a Wu Shu chick stay on the ground?

> >
> > The one thing I can see wrong with these (besides my
> objections)was
> > something I badgered them into modifying- Air Throw could
> easily become
> > a 'twink' move. So, you can't Abort to it unless you're
> already in the
> > air (such as Aborting from a Jumping Roundhouse) or if the
> jumper passes
> > over your hex, these being the only situations I've been
> able to use it
> > in the games.
> >
> > Any comments?
>
> Something to concider is keeping the list as is (or even
> adding to it) FOR THE STORYTELLER ONLY. This will allow you
> to simulate the cheeze of the videogame and make you end
> fights a lot harder.
>
> ===
> staredown@... staredown@...
> www.geocities.com/tokyo/1062
>
> "We don't expect kittens to fight wildcats and win--we
> merely expect them to try."
> -- Robert Heinlein
>
> Bizarreness is the essence of the exotic.
>
> _________________________________________________________
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> Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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>Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Chris Hoffmann <staredown@...>
>Subject: Re: [streetfighter] New Topic: Expanded Aborts
>To: Joshua Rogers <tkshockwave@...>, skarsten@...
>Cc: streetfighter@...
>
>---Joshua Rogers <tkshockwave@...> wrote:
>>
>> Something that my group recently decided to do was expand
>the list of
>> available Abort maneuvers. Why? Well, mostly because there
>are those
>> maneuvers which are utterly useless unless you, not your
>character,
>> have Mind Reading. The maneuvers we added are as follows:
>
>> Air Throw
>
>Be careful with this one. Even if you only abort to it from
>other aerial attacks, it still could be abusive. But, if
>you do allow it, then you should add air suplex (from
>secrets of shadoloo) to the list.
>

Air Suplex, as I remember it (don't have SoS yet), will hit standing
opponents, and knock them down- so even the arguement for Flying Knee
Thrust doesn't fit it. Hard to justify it then.

>> Punch/Kick/Grappling Defense
>
>Since they are already blocks, they should already be
>abortable (same with missile reflection and energy
>reflection). Grappling Defense should definately be
>abortable.
>

Actually, according to the book as we read it, not all blocks are
abortable. Only Block itself. On consideration, I agree that all ought
to be abortable, or at least seem to at first. Might want to consider
this more, since tournament fights aren't supposed to last more than 10
rounds. Don't want to make blocks the best way to go.

>> San He
>
>See above
>
>> Vertical Rolling Attack
>
>I disagree with this one.

It all really depends on how you interpret it. If you have it hit only
aerial opponents, then it's better as an Abort, at least in our minds.
None of us recall seeing VRA hit a grounded opponent, so we're looking
at it that way.

>
>> Flying Knee Thrust (I disagree with them on this one)
>
>This move is well balanced already. It doesn't need to be
>abortable.
>
>> Power Uppercut (Ditto)
>
>Since it's so quick and easy in the video game, a case could
>be made I suppose. (Same with handstand kick)
>
>> Elemental Stride/Backflip/Teleport/Pool
>
>I'm not up on the elemental manuvers but I don't think
>backflip or teleprt should be abortable.
>

Granted it's a pain to have more movements abortable, particularly
teleports, but it's not as bad as it seems- we also have a standing
tournament rule that if you concentrate solely on evading your opponent
for 2 consecutive rounds, you lose. This has actually only come up once
with a World Warrior fight, costing Chun Li a fight with E. Honda.

>> San He could be argued as useful for when you decide to
>block- but since
>> the example mentions getting hit by a car or bus (which
>doesn't usually
>> give you time to react, really) we thought it could be
>done reactively,
>> like a block. Air Throw and Vertical Rolling attack rely
>on an airborne
>> opponent, which means you have to know an opponent is
>going to jump- and
>> if you mess up once, or they've done any research on you,
>you'll never
>> get to use it. Flying Knee Thrust was argued in by a
>player saying it
>> didn't do much damage and left you sitting in front of the
>enemy, so the
>> only good was against jumpers for the knockdown. Power
>Uppercut was
>> added for the same reason- which since it's a 1 Move
>Fierce Punch, I can
>> see. The other maneuvers we added because they're all
>movement oriented,
>> so seemed fitting to put in.
>>
>> The one thing I can see wrong with these (besides my
>objections)was
>> something I badgered them into modifying- Air Throw could
>easily become
>> a 'twink' move. So, you can't Abort to it unless you're
>already in the
>> air (such as Aborting from a Jumping Roundhouse) or if the
>jumper passes
>> over your hex, these being the only situations I've been
>able to use it
>> in the games.
>>
>> Any comments?
>
>Something to concider is keeping the list as is (or even
>adding to it) FOR THE STORYTELLER ONLY. This will allow you
>to simulate the cheeze of the videogame and make you end
>fights a lot harder.
>

True, it'd make the fights a lot harder, but that's not really the
point. We're not trying to simulate the game, only use the information
and make our own. A CPU being cheesy is one thing. A Storyteller being
cheesy is just bad.

>===
>staredown@... staredown@...
>www.geocities.com/tokyo/1062
>
>"We don't expect kittens to fight wildcats and win--we
>merely expect them to try."
> -- Robert Heinlein
>
>Bizarreness is the essence of the exotic.
>
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Air Suplex does not hit standing opponents. You're thinking of Choke
Throw.

Joshua Rogers wrote:

>
> >Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:26:33 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Chris Hoffmann <staredown@...>
> >Subject: Re: [streetfighter] New Topic: Expanded Aborts
> >To: Joshua Rogers <tkshockwave@...>, skarsten@...
> >Cc: streetfighter@...
> >
> >---Joshua Rogers <tkshockwave@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Something that my group recently decided to do was expand
> >the list of
> >> available Abort maneuvers. Why? Well, mostly because there
> >are those
> >> maneuvers which are utterly useless unless you, not your
> >character,
> >> have Mind Reading. The maneuvers we added are as follows:
> >
> >> Air Throw
> >
> >Be careful with this one. Even if you only abort to it from
> >other aerial attacks, it still could be abusive. But, if
> >you do allow it, then you should add air suplex (from
> >secrets of shadoloo) to the list.
> >
> Air Suplex, as I remember it (don't have SoS yet), will hit standing
> opponents, and knock them down- so even the arguement for Flying Knee
> Thrust doesn't fit it. Hard to justify it then.
> >> Punch/Kick/Grappling Defense
> >

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Joshua Rogers wrote:

> Air Suplex, as I remember it (don't have SoS yet), will hit standing
> opponents, and knock them down- so even the arguement for Flying Knee
> Thrust doesn't fit it. Hard to justify it then.
> >> Punch/Kick/Grappling Defense
> >
> >Since they are already blocks, they should already be
> >abortable (same with missile reflection and energy
> >reflection). Grappling Defense should definately be
> >abortable.
> >
> Actually, according to the book as we read it, not all blocks are
> abortable. Only Block itself. On consideration, I agree that all ought
> to be abortable, or at least seem to at first. Might want to consider
> this more, since tournament fights aren't supposed to last more than 10
> rounds. Don't want to make blocks the best way to go.

Blocks aren't the best way to go, since you aren't doing any damage with
them in most respects (except for a piddly maka wara or deflecting punch
occasionally), they do nothing vs. grabs, monkey grab punch, etc., and you
lose honor by using them. According the the book, under "Block" special
maneuvers it is specified that unless otherwise indicated, the special
blocks are to be treated as Blocks, which you can assume includes the
abortability. (This is subject to GM call of course, but doesn't really
imbalance things.)

> >> San He
> >
> >See above
> >
> >> Vertical Rolling Attack
> >
> >I disagree with this one.
> It all really depends on how you interpret it. If you have it hit only
> aerial opponents, then it's better as an Abort, at least in our minds.
> None of us recall seeing VRA hit a grounded opponent, so we're looking
> at it that way.
>

Why is it that attacks which hit aerial opponents should be abortable? It's
instinctive to perform a vertical rolling attack? Not sure where the logic
behind this comes from.

> >
> >> Flying Knee Thrust (I disagree with them on this one)
> >
> >This move is well balanced already. It doesn't need to be
> >abortable.
> >
> >> Power Uppercut (Ditto)
> >
> >Since it's so quick and easy in the video game, a case could
> >be made I suppose. (Same with handstand kick)
> >

The problem with basing move speeds off the video game is that the "speed"
of the video maneuver is based on the player's reflexes, the button/stick
combinations required, the frames of animations it takes to execute the
maneuver, etc. The thing is that blocks and jumps are fairly instinctive
stick-only maneuvers in the game, with no buttons to hit, which makes sense
as far as abortability goes. For that matter, why not simply adjust the
speeds of maneuvers in SFSTG according to how fast they are in the video
game? Then you would have wildly differing values depending on who chooses
the speeds (since some vid players execute certain maneuvers faster than
others), what console they are playing on, etc.

> >> Elemental Stride/Backflip/Teleport/Pool
> >
> >I'm not up on the elemental manuvers but I don't think
> >backflip or teleprt should be abortable.
> >
> Granted it's a pain to have more movements abortable, particularly
> teleports, but it's not as bad as it seems- we also have a standing
> tournament rule that if you concentrate solely on evading your opponent
> for 2 consecutive rounds, you lose. This has actually only come up once
> with a World Warrior fight, costing Chun Li a fight with E. Honda.

That would mean Dhalsim would lose a lot, considering the book description
of Kabbaddi as being a patient, frustrating art, evading until the enemy
makes a mistake, etc. Disqualifying someone for 2 turns of evasion
essentially means less variety in the fights, just who does better damage,
has more durability, and has better special maneuvers since they will be
just trading blows the whole time.

> >> San He could be argued as useful for when you decide to
> >block- but since
> >> the example mentions getting hit by a car or bus (which
> >doesn't usually
> >> give you time to react, really) we thought it could be
> >done reactively,
> >> like a block. Air Throw and Vertical Rolling attack rely
> >on an airborne
> >> opponent, which means you have to know an opponent is
> >going to jump- and
> >> if you mess up once, or they've done any research on you,
> >you'll never
> >> get to use it. Flying Knee Thrust was argued in by a

Yes, same problem with the Maka Wara. These maneuvers are specialty
maneuvers, and a good strategist will be able to get around them or
eliminate their effectiveness, which is how it should be. Air Throw is an
insanely powerful maneuver that one time in 6 it comes off.

> >player saying it
> >> didn't do much damage and left you sitting in front of the
> >enemy, so the
> >> only good was against jumpers for the knockdown. Power
> >Uppercut was
> >> added for the same reason- which since it's a 1 Move
> >Fierce Punch, I can
> >> see. The other maneuvers we added because they're all
> >movement oriented,
> >> so seemed fitting to put in.
> >>
> >> The one thing I can see wrong with these (besides my
> >objections)was
> >> something I badgered them into modifying- Air Throw could
> >easily become
> >> a 'twink' move. So, you can't Abort to it unless you're
> >already in the
> >> air (such as Aborting from a Jumping Roundhouse) or if the
> >jumper passes
> >> over your hex, these being the only situations I've been
> >able to use it
> >> in the games.
> >>
> >> Any comments?
> >
> >Something to concider is keeping the list as is (or even
> >adding to it) FOR THE STORYTELLER ONLY. This will allow you
> >to simulate the cheeze of the videogame and make you end
> >fights a lot harder.
> >
> True, it'd make the fights a lot harder, but that's not really the
> point. We're not trying to simulate the game, only use the information
> and make our own. A CPU being cheesy is one thing. A Storyteller being
> cheesy is just bad.
> >===

Hehe... sometimes I think GM's and players of systems as detailed as SFSTG
just like to make modifications for little good reason, except to try out
something different to see how it works, or because they think they can fill
in a gap that the designers left. In some cases that's true, but SFSTG is
an extremely well-balanced system as is (basic book) and was tested
extensively for a long time (although they didn't really proofread that
well). A lot of ideas that sound good in theory (i.e. abort to anything)
turn out to be nightmares when put into place, as a good thinker will find
the hole in the system right away and exploit it beyond all belief, and soon
you have a campaign full of nothing but cartwheel kicking aborting to grabs
guys who start with 10 willpower.



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