On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:53:31 -0400 brian fish <fishbn@...
> OK, you said specific maneuvers might help, I identified all the
> I found unbalancing. Needless to say, it's almost all of them, if
> you can
> give me good reasons for them, or tell me why they're balanced, it
> help. . . . . .
> Burning wheel speed plus 2 hits three times, damage plus 2. . . . .
> This move is basically three cannon drills, how is that balancing??
It can hit potentially less times than someone with a turbo spinning
clothesline (who has Athletics of 5). Against a blocking opponent, it
will do significantly less damage to someone than a Flaming Dragon Punch
will (which has +6 damage, hits twice). It can't knock down opponents.
It's prerequisites are equal to the Flaming Dragon Punch.
A cannon drill has +2 Move (move almost appears to the best most
expensive manuever stat in the game), this has a -1 move.
Perhaps, this move could benefit from a speed or move reduction. (maybe
-1 Speed to take it out of the Cannon Drill range - although the Cannon
Drill has far less prequisites and don't really see the need to make it
inferior to it, and -2 Move to make it equal to the Flaming DP?).
> Cinder punch, no cost, Damage +5
> nuff said
Buffalo Punch (Dam+5), nuff said. BP requires Punch 2 and costs 1. Cinder
Punch requires Punch 4 and athletics 2. It also costs 1. Difference is
the Cinder Punch -1 speed, not -2, and has potentially more movement,
although they would be equal in move if the person only had the
Does it sound reasonable?
or would making it Damage +4 be necessary in your opinion?
> Cinder wheel, 2 power points, hit's twice, one of which is +5, speed
> Is there a single move in the game that does +5 damage, and hits
> twice? the
> speed +1 just makes it unblockable in a block combo. . . . .
It does less damage than a Double-Dread Kick. I used that move as the
model. I drained 2 pts from it's movement (comparing to the double dread)
and added it to Speed (making it +0) which is big. Since the
prerequisites are so much bigger, I added +1 Speed. I figured the lack of
a high movement justified removing the willpower cost. Double Dread has 3
techniques dots and 1 PP worth of prereqs. Cinder Wheel has 7 tech dots
and 2 PPs.
Does it still need weakening?
The cost could be increased to 3 to make it equal to the Double-Dread
(that's probably the best idea IMO) or it could be made to cost 1 Will
> Firefist speed +1 dam +6
> It is SUPPOSED to be +2 to normal damage of a BASIC punch
Er? There already is a move called Firefist?
Anyway, this is essentially the Hino Suzakuken version of the Dragon
It has essentially the same cost as DP (maybe a bit more in the prereq.
It's 1 pt faster and doesn't have the move penalty, but it also can't
jump to avoid fireballs.
Besides a renaming it, what would you suggest or does it sound
> Firestorm Damage +2, 2 power points
> What a surprise, an improved spinning clothesline
No, a variation on Turbo Spinning Clothesline. I removed the bonus to
speed, and added it to damage. I then made it also cost 1 Chi for the
fire and added +1 to damage. So it only has +1 difference in stats to TS
Clothesline, costs twice as much as a TurboS Clothesline, and the style
that can learn it has to pay more to get the Spinning Clotheline
requirement. It also needs a Focus 3.
> Hellgate grab with +0 spd, +5 damage, +0 move, no cost
> not even ONE willpower?? And it MOVES?!?!?
This one was hard to write stats for. It needed to do more than a Thigh
Press or such due to the brutal nature of the neck damage.
I can't recall what I was comparing this to... Spin Piledriver or Diving
Anyhow, you're right - it should cost 1 Will and maybe have move reduced
to Two that way it can't go farther than a Spin Piledriver. It just
needed the effect of someone leaping a far distance to come down on the
Would those changes make it acceptable?
> Phoenix spd +0, Dam +6 twice, move +3
> Boy, a faster dragon kick that hits twice, no matter what, and moves
> hexes more
This is actually based off the Flaming Dragon Punch. It doesn't jump. If
it manages a second hit, the second hit is based off Focus and Int,
something a character with this isn't likely to have very high.
It costs more than Flaming DP and needs one more Focus dot.
Perhaps, +3 Move was excessive (Scissor Kick has it). Launching the
character like a fiery missile across the board was the intended concept.
Perhaps, a Move of +0 would be sufficient? (With Firefist having a -1
instead of +0.)
> Double Elbow A two hit Rekka Ken?? Are you SERIOUS???
No, it's just a two move Rekka Ken using Elbow Smashes (the attacks don't
hit twice or anything). Movement is simply changed to +0. Heck, it's what
Karin uses in SFA3.
> High/low reversal, block and throw at the same time?!?!?
I it's not a throw, it simply uses grab (and the attacker won't be
blocking anyway) for damage. You have to suffer the attack first and
interrupt (speed on this block is only +1 so you'd better hope they don't
jab). It's not very damaging either (+0). It's simply what Karin uses in
> Hop Kick so you made up a cheaper, more damaging forward slide
1 Pt was removed from Move to make Speed -1 a +0. The requirements are
I don't see any problem. The Knockdown is supposed to represent the
juggleability of the Hop kick in the videogame (juggling was something I
pondered over for awhile, gave up, and decided knockdown was sufficient
(intead of falling down you get knocked up and fall down).
> Vertical spin +2, dam +3, hits twice, no cost
> NO COST AT ALL?? CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, plus, find a move ANYWHERE in
> the book
> that hits more than one (base, not like hurricane kick) and has
> stats even
> CLOSE to this. . . . .
This is simply a move where the kicks can be dodged as fireballs. IF you
dodge the kick, you can attack. Against all other moves or a kick you
can't interrupt, it acts as a regular one-hitting kick. Movement should
be None. I'll change that. No need for Move in an interrupt move.
> Flaming backfist, dam +3, hits twice
> Boy, another double hit with a damage bonus
It's a variation on Spin Knuckle. Same cost but needs Focus 3. I moved +2
from Move and added it to damage, makes sense given concentration is
spent generating the fire and that fire does more damage. Same reason for
1 Chi cost rather than Will.
> Maul dam +4, hits twice
> I'm getting too lazy to type this over and over. . . . .
It's a cheaper, less powerful variation on Flaming DP (but not aerial and
doesn't knockdown). Same Will and Chi cost though and the prerequisites
are nasty too. I meant to remove the dizzy aspect of it.
In order to replicate a Super, this is the second and final move the
owning style should put into a combo (finger slash to maul).
> Burning thrust kick So you wanted a dragon kick that goes off two
> faster and is cheaper to get
Well, flying thrust kick is a prereq. This is Mai's flaming kick from
Fatal Fury/KOF. It moves less than Flying TKick, has One Move rather than
-2. Is only +1 Speed from Flying TKick. Getting this rather than Dragon
Kick? One would have to be crazy because getting this move and it's
prerequisites is far more expensive than just getting, well, Dragon Kick.
If you want +2 more Speed to DK, just put it in a combo. I just wanted
some variation and to force character who take the styles I made that use
this to pay more.
> Stomping backflip, oh, who believes it, another interrupt that hits
> ad has damage +2, and no cost
It isn't specifically an interrupt. It's a double-hitting backflip kick
that is h ideously expensive due to it's prerequisites. It isn't much
more powerful than Double-Hit kick. I've seen many fighting games where
this move has been employed.
> Moving block, I do this, but you have to have lightfeet and musical
> accompaniement, this move is yet again another cheap unbalancer
Yet, you do it with lightfeet and musical accompaniement. I think someone
should be able to put their guard up and slowly advance, but I don't want
people running around the board using block. Perhaps, I should the set
the Move to One so characters can't raise their athletics to get more out
of it (requires Athl 3 and move is -2)? Although, I can see a Move of 2
hexes still being reasonable.
Does this sound reasonable?
> Rushing slam:so you wanted an easier to get version of the siberian
I wanted Iori's move from KOF where he runs up and slams you into the
You're right. This move is ****ed up. Thanks for alerting me to this one.
I might as well just use the Sib. Bear Crusher with an altered
Although, do you think this move would be OK if I reduced the damage to
less than the Siberian Bear Crusher?
Perhaps, if the damage was changed to +1 not +4? Would that be
> Flying fire slam, what a surprise, +5 damage, +2 move and hits
> twice. . . . .
Mai's bursting into fire Super from KOF.
It seems to have a fair number of point tradeoffs. (The prereqs are much
more expsensive than those of Dragon Kick.) Considering, the high
Athletics requirement, maybe it doesn't need the speed bonus of +2.
Does this sound reasonable? It needs to enter a foe's hex like the
double-dread to get the second hit.
> Slap, what's wrong with the jab maneuver??
Nothing. Spending one point for a jab that does +0 instead of -1 damage.
Didn't seem overpowered. Also, no existing Punch moves seemed appropriate
for the Techno Dance style, and I wanted to give it one. Didn't seem
> Vertical screw So you wanted a faster, easier to get Flying thrust
I wanted Cammy's Axle Break kick. You see, Flying Thrust Kick has
movement and movement isn't in the concept for this move. And, it costs
more than FT Kick (at least it needs Kick 3 and Handstand Kick instead of
Kick 4, so it's pretty close).
Don't see a problem with this one.
As you can tell, I am someone fully in support of creative people. It
doesn't matter to me that a move is merely a variation adding to variety
although if I could plainly substitute a pre-existing move, I usually
did. But, I do honestly want to not have disgustingly overbalancing
manuevers in the game.
Thanks for taking time to go through some of this.
And just so you know, my character who uses Hino Suzakuken has lost the
last several fights she's been in (to characters from the main books), so
it hasn't seemed cheesy yet (of course, the game master might just be
using cheesily powerfully villains).
Thanks for your help,
Knight of the Black Rose
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